I read an article a few months back that said last year BMW sold 82,000 X-5's. 82,000 home grown, suspect initial quality, non sport sedan SUV's.

Today, when I see an X-5, it seems like a natural. A perfect addition to a line up of sedans. A vehicle with the on road manners of a euro sedan, and at least some off-road capabilty,(except 4.6 which is not reccomended for off road use) a good choice for those who need more than a sedan, but didnt need a full size SUV, or didnt want a mini van. It's every bit of a BMW. Even though they are modestly priced and built here in the US. I'd have to call the X-5 a success.

Do you guys think that overall, the X-5 has helped BMW or hurt them? I drove an M3 convertible for awhile, and every one from 6yr old girls, to 80 year old ladies, know what a BMW is, they have at least as much "brand" recognition as Porsche. If not more in some places.

Clearly, the Cayenne will be superior to the X-5 in every way, on road and off. It's made in Germany, and stands on the shoulders of some legendary vehicles(heritage), wont that be enough to guarantee it's success?


Peace
PS

 

Not for the Defenders of Porsche Purism. be prepared for an onslaught of how Porsche is "a completely different case than BMW" commentary. true, but doesn't address your point.

I think some people must have bought into Porsche for reasons other than how their car (icon) performs. As I've said before, if you want to REALLY influence Porsche's course, buy alot of stock, go to work there, or marry into the family. However, if complaining about it is better therapy than driving, this forum is cost-effective.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>I think some people must have bought into Porsche for reasons other than how their car (icon) performs. As I've said before, if you want to REALLY influence Porsche's course, buy alot of stock, go to work there, or marry into the family. However, if complaining about it is better therapy than driving, this forum is cost-effective.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Amen - and very well put (I've been trying to say that in so few words for the past two months.... )

 

Pink Panther

First of all, each brand is unique has its own strengths. Surely you are not suggesting that the BMW brand is identical in nature to the Porsche brand? If we talk about brand recognitionthen it would be best to treat this separately. For example, one way to dilute this element of the brand would be to build really anonymous cars with no badging or advertising but that is not what we are talking about.

I don't think that even the strongest detractors of the Cayenne think that it will not be a success. The main concern is whether it will damage the brand. For my reply to this, there is a separate thread so will not duplicate here. Suffice to say that the Porsche brand has IMHO one very big x-factor which I would call 'mystique', and I personally think this is irrevocably tied to the 911 product. Therefore the Cayenne will not dilute the brand any further than the other excellent products they company have produced over the years.

Anyway, it's a good read - go and have a laugh.

 

Remember the Lamborghini truck?? Every body thought that was cool, to have a performance car co. make a performance truck. My only beef with the Cayenne is it's too small, it need a Cayenne XL size as well

 

[quote]My only beef with the Cayenne is it's too small, it need a Cayenne XL size as well<hr></blockquote>

Der Grosser Cayenne? Man, you are raising blood pressure all over the planet w/ that idea...

 

Kevin,
Weidiking says it's supposed to be useful and fill needs: my need is a bigger truck. My Yukon XL is great, but i'd love to have the power and the handling of my New Cayenne Xtra Piggish!!!!
Dogs in the back, mud everyhwere, grinding up the mountain in low range... XL "need filled".

Why does a bigger Cayenne raise your blood pressure any more than a "regular" one??

 

My bp only went up because I was laughing so hard. I have no problem w/ Porsche making whatever they think they have to to make money - I only own their products, not the business.

However, you may note that a number of Porsche enthusiasts are none-too-enthused about PAGs foray into SUV waters (mud?). Much of that is based upon adherence to Christian's Kantons (or Kommandments, or whatever, elsewhere on this Forum) against Porsche building SUVs. If they "super-sized" the C, can you imagine the apoplexy?

I guess my context for evaluating Porsche designs & products includes things like the Seige Guns of WWI, and the Tank suspensions he designed in WWII. Big isn't bad - it depends on the application's requirements & the designer's intent.

I WISH Porsche were able to build nothing but pure Sports Cars and spend large sums of money competing at LeMans, etc. But we didn't buy enough 911s, 928s, 968s & Boxsters to make that a reality. I suspect a volume approaching 150,000 units/yr. (maybe more - wanna go F1 racing to win?) would be needed to sustain that.

So, I won't dissect the way they run the business too much, though I gladly (& w/ a broad smile) dissect their products when I get my hands (& eyes) on them. As car companies go, PAG still turns out fine products, & remains independent (once you are merged / acquired, there is no going back - for anyone who thinks thats good for high end niche manufacturers... well, study the cases, talk to insiders, & reconsider). That does impress me. Cheers!

 

[quote]...if complaining about it is better therapy than driving, this forum is cost-effective. <hr></blockquote>

Perfect!

 

[quote]Originally posted by watt:
<strong>My only beef with the Cayenne is it's too small, it need a Cayenne XL size as well</strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL, come to think of it - that's something that I haven't been able to put my finger on till now. It IS small..... forget the XL, this is America... XXL or XXXL please. Like, Ford Excriment size (even though that's being discontinued for lack of market).

 

What Christian and other Porsche apologists conveniently ignore is the price premium that we pay to own a Porsche. This premium comes from the history of the past -- of where Porsche came from and what the name means and what the company has accomplished (in the PAST at least). ‘Emotion’ and other intangibles account for most of the premium and WW and his band of accountants is hell bent on destroying this heritage, history and prestige. In the process, WW is making it a point to insult those of us whom own Porsches because our ‘emotion’. I have no problem with Porsches new direction, just don’t expect me to pay a 50% premium for the products if you lump me in the soccer-on-on-a-cell-phone crowd.

 

Mike:

Where in your sales contract does it say anything about buying into the Porsche past? You paid for a high performance automobile that has evolved from many years of racing and development. Considering my C2 Turbo cost over $100K in 1991, I would say your new Turbo is quite a bargain. I don't really see the premium you refer to in your post.

I am also amazed that you can intuit the intent and motivations of Porsche management. What do you really know about Porsche's business model? To say WW is "hell bent on destroying the Porsche heritage" is not founded on any data or proof - it's just another one of your inflammatory hyperboles.

This is exactly the problem I have with the comments you made in the NYT. You do not speak for all Porsche enthusiasts so stop acting like you do.

 

[quote]I have no problem with Porsches new direction, just don’t expect me to pay a 50% premium for the products if you lump me in the soccer-on-on-a-cell-phone crowd.<hr></blockquote>

OK, don't do it then. Why not sell your car & make your next purchase from a manufacturer more attuned to your emotional sensibilities & self-image?

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>

OK, don't do it then. Why not sell your car & make your next purchase from a manufacturer more attuned to your emotional sensibilities & self-image?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Like SEAT maybe?

 

[quote]Originally posted by mike_la_jolla:
<strong>What Christian and other Porsche apologists conveniently ignore ...........</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dear me, so I'm to be tarred with the "apologist" tag..... I'm almost insulted.

Unfortunately I'm unable to conform to your stereotype. You see Porsche doesn't need me to apologise for it producing the most advanced, capable, succesful cars it has ever done. It doesn't need me to apologise for it's Chairman having rescued it from dire straits, against all industry analysis, and having transformed it into one of Germany's most profitable and respected businesses. It doesn't need to apologise for not pouring vast amounts of money into meaningless prototype competition.

As for the "hell bent jibe" against WW - I don't know how to politely put this - but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. My recommended cure for this is a quick visit to Stuttgart and a bit of time spent with those who work there. They'll quickly put you right. You might stop off along the way and consult a few motor industry analysts too. You see WW's credentials are not questioned by the people who know.... all that remains perhaps is a spot of inward reflection on your own credentials to make such criticism.

As for your complaints re the "premium" charged for the Porsche product, I suggest you consider two factors. Porsches currently retail for little more than they did four or five years ago. Indeed if you were to begin to consider inflation over the last ten year period you might realise that Porsche are charging less for their products now than five to ten years ago.

The other way to judge this so called "premium" is to compare the competition - Porsche is after all selling products in a market and competition is one of the main factors to consider. I'm going to put you in the market for a bog standard 996 Carrera.... I would understand if you considered an M3 as an equally capable purchase - I have no idea about the US pricing, but here the difference is 40k and 56k. For the cheaper price you get a great car - it is however effectively just a souped up 3-series, however good it is. Any other competitiors at similar prices?

So you see I don't see any "premium" at all - just a car optimally and reasonably priced for it's performance and capablilty. Emotion, heritage, past accomplishments - I don't give a fig - and I strongly suspect F. Porsche wouldn't either. What matters are the cars they are producing. In every sector they are the class leaders - and I'm afraid for all the naysayers here the Cayenne is shaping up to continue this excellence.

And a last word about being "lumped" into a crowd you clearly don't want to be associated with - your car has not changed because it's manufacturer has produced a car for another market and category of owner. Show a little independence, a little backbone, your car is still every bit as good as it always was; the 996 and Boxster ranges are every bit as good as they have ever been. Are you so preoccupied by the image of the brand purchaser that you can't continue to drive your "sports car" Porsche for fear of being mistaken for a "Soccer Mum"...????

Personally I'm perfectly happy to be seen in either my '87 Carrera or our '03 Turbo. If anyone else thinks less of me because "Soccer Mums" now drive a car with the same badge, that's clearly their problem, not mine....

Have a very happy Christmas, and don't apologise....