Who is to blame for the Cayenne....?
03-11-2002, 04:54 PM
#46
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Gonzo,
You are quite right - technically the 986/996 have an F6 not V6, minor point but clearly different types of engine. Porsche offcourse being synonymous with the 'F6' engine. I stand corrected.
BigPorscheGuy39,
I don't purport to be the matter, metaphorically speaking, and to that I welcome hard facts about the number of sales achieved by the 924, 944, 968 & 928. I also do realise the significance of the aforementioned cars in PAG’s history – facts that cannot be denied. My ‘labelling’ them as failures was an intentional ploy to raise differences of opinions and serve upon us some hard facts – those objectives, I feel, have been achieved. It was a tongue ‘n cheek generalisation that seems to have got a few posters on their high & mighty.
a) Lets not get beyond ourselves, the 911 is the only range that PAG has developed over many years and kept in production during good or bad times since 1964 – that is a fact.
b) In the 911-evolution road map, other models were sited as alternative market door openers for PAG - fact.
c) Whatever the reasons are behind the 924, 944, 968 & 928 not being developed further and kept in product, the realities are that they are no longer a PAG current model and as yet have not been revived - fact.
d) Amidst public outcry, if any, of those aforementioned models not being in current production – PAG has grown financially from strength to strength citing the 911 at the helm of its product lines - fact.
e) PAG is still independent and clearly represents an attractive acquisition to other major players IF the opportunity presented it self, in good times or hard times (such as now) – fact.
Product success surely must be when that product proves itself to have a long shelf life through development, refinement and strong sales.
I stand by my original comments in relation to the aforementioned models – the fact is they are not currently in production or being developed further. PAG heaped its resources on the 911, I presume because above all it was an easy product to manufacture, market, maintain and develop further in comparison to its vast array of other models – including those that were publicly unveiled and those that just did not get off the drawing board.
On the flip side of the coin is the 986 – a product that can clearly be developed further cost effectively, given more powerful engine due to its robust chassis. Clever packaging has meant that it can meet increasingly stringent internationally recognised safety standards. There are rumours of the 986 ranges being expanded to a TT Coupe, an RS Roadster & Coupe. Hate to repeat it, but the 986 successes is seemingly spearheading PAG venturing into new markets – if all the rumours are to be believed. The SUV is no longer a rumour though, is it?
Last but not least, strong forward orders have meant that this particular product, 986, actually keeps PAG manufacturing plants ticking over nicely. The 911, in any incarnation, would always sell to loyal and new buyers just because it is a 911 – it is the ‘shadowing’ product(s) that has always proven hard to develop, maintain, market and ultimately sell confidently until now.
Good reading...
You are quite right - technically the 986/996 have an F6 not V6, minor point but clearly different types of engine. Porsche offcourse being synonymous with the 'F6' engine. I stand corrected.
BigPorscheGuy39,
I don't purport to be the matter, metaphorically speaking, and to that I welcome hard facts about the number of sales achieved by the 924, 944, 968 & 928. I also do realise the significance of the aforementioned cars in PAG’s history – facts that cannot be denied. My ‘labelling’ them as failures was an intentional ploy to raise differences of opinions and serve upon us some hard facts – those objectives, I feel, have been achieved. It was a tongue ‘n cheek generalisation that seems to have got a few posters on their high & mighty.
a) Lets not get beyond ourselves, the 911 is the only range that PAG has developed over many years and kept in production during good or bad times since 1964 – that is a fact.
b) In the 911-evolution road map, other models were sited as alternative market door openers for PAG - fact.
c) Whatever the reasons are behind the 924, 944, 968 & 928 not being developed further and kept in product, the realities are that they are no longer a PAG current model and as yet have not been revived - fact.
d) Amidst public outcry, if any, of those aforementioned models not being in current production – PAG has grown financially from strength to strength citing the 911 at the helm of its product lines - fact.
e) PAG is still independent and clearly represents an attractive acquisition to other major players IF the opportunity presented it self, in good times or hard times (such as now) – fact.
Product success surely must be when that product proves itself to have a long shelf life through development, refinement and strong sales.
I stand by my original comments in relation to the aforementioned models – the fact is they are not currently in production or being developed further. PAG heaped its resources on the 911, I presume because above all it was an easy product to manufacture, market, maintain and develop further in comparison to its vast array of other models – including those that were publicly unveiled and those that just did not get off the drawing board.
On the flip side of the coin is the 986 – a product that can clearly be developed further cost effectively, given more powerful engine due to its robust chassis. Clever packaging has meant that it can meet increasingly stringent internationally recognised safety standards. There are rumours of the 986 ranges being expanded to a TT Coupe, an RS Roadster & Coupe. Hate to repeat it, but the 986 successes is seemingly spearheading PAG venturing into new markets – if all the rumours are to be believed. The SUV is no longer a rumour though, is it?
Last but not least, strong forward orders have meant that this particular product, 986, actually keeps PAG manufacturing plants ticking over nicely. The 911, in any incarnation, would always sell to loyal and new buyers just because it is a 911 – it is the ‘shadowing’ product(s) that has always proven hard to develop, maintain, market and ultimately sell confidently until now.
Good reading...
03-11-2002, 06:22 PM
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Gee the way you place the term 'fact' after each point you made was a stunning rhetorical device, and I'm humbled, but I don't get your point yet...
See, you still haven't said why the 924 was a failure. Nor have you said why the 928 was a failure. You DID cite some interesting facts, but none of these 'facts' you present makes the cars 'failures'.
Here's what I mean: I can cite some names from the phonebook, all of which are facts, but none prove any particular point. I think you need to tie together why any of these 'facts' makes the cars a failure. Your facts must come together better to make some coherent claim.
I think you may want to consider that perhaps Porsche wanted to make the 924 and maybe even the 944 and 928 for reasons that are completely different from the reasons given for making the 911. Such a possibility, if true, would explain each 'fact' you present, but would still not render any of these models a 'failure'.
For example, I've read that the 924 was created to help boost Porsche sales so they could cross subsidize other car projects during the energy crisis. If true, this 'rumour' would serve as a decent explanation of why the car was made. And far from being a failure, it would mean the car was an astounding success, as it achieved the goal desired by the corporation.
See, you still haven't said why the 924 was a failure. Nor have you said why the 928 was a failure. You DID cite some interesting facts, but none of these 'facts' you present makes the cars 'failures'.
Here's what I mean: I can cite some names from the phonebook, all of which are facts, but none prove any particular point. I think you need to tie together why any of these 'facts' makes the cars a failure. Your facts must come together better to make some coherent claim.
I think you may want to consider that perhaps Porsche wanted to make the 924 and maybe even the 944 and 928 for reasons that are completely different from the reasons given for making the 911. Such a possibility, if true, would explain each 'fact' you present, but would still not render any of these models a 'failure'.
For example, I've read that the 924 was created to help boost Porsche sales so they could cross subsidize other car projects during the energy crisis. If true, this 'rumour' would serve as a decent explanation of why the car was made. And far from being a failure, it would mean the car was an astounding success, as it achieved the goal desired by the corporation.
03-12-2002, 07:56 AM
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Guys,
I really think some of you need to make a visit to the library or your nearest bookshop and pick up a few books on Ferry Porsche. Even check out some of his interviews if they have been translated. My read of Ferry was that he did not just want to be known as a niche sports car manufacturer but he wanted to be a major player as a full blown across the range auto manufacturer. If you ever visit Germany you will find many of his companies projects in musuems outside Stuttgart.
Porsche only last year celerbrated the 25th anniversary of the 924 with some vigour and fanfare. The 914/924/944 projects saw over 300,000 autos built. In most peoples minds the 924 was a rip roaring success seeing as it was quite expensive even in 1976 for the average person.
What killed off these projects was simply lack of further investment. The 928 was designed for the USA, like the Cayenne. It did sell well but became a bit of a production burden and was stopped on economic grounds. Running from 1978 to 1995 has to be a success.
The 944 was a big seller as well but it was priced out of existence. The 968 was probably a failure. Wrong thing at the wrong time.
In the end though there are arguments for both sides. A true idea of success is how many survive today. Tens of thousands of them. Loved and cherished around the world. This to me is the true success of all models,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
First Porsche was a 924
I really think some of you need to make a visit to the library or your nearest bookshop and pick up a few books on Ferry Porsche. Even check out some of his interviews if they have been translated. My read of Ferry was that he did not just want to be known as a niche sports car manufacturer but he wanted to be a major player as a full blown across the range auto manufacturer. If you ever visit Germany you will find many of his companies projects in musuems outside Stuttgart.
Porsche only last year celerbrated the 25th anniversary of the 924 with some vigour and fanfare. The 914/924/944 projects saw over 300,000 autos built. In most peoples minds the 924 was a rip roaring success seeing as it was quite expensive even in 1976 for the average person.
What killed off these projects was simply lack of further investment. The 928 was designed for the USA, like the Cayenne. It did sell well but became a bit of a production burden and was stopped on economic grounds. Running from 1978 to 1995 has to be a success.
The 944 was a big seller as well but it was priced out of existence. The 968 was probably a failure. Wrong thing at the wrong time.
In the end though there are arguments for both sides. A true idea of success is how many survive today. Tens of thousands of them. Loved and cherished around the world. This to me is the true success of all models,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
First Porsche was a 924
03-12-2002, 11:13 AM
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Agreed Adrian. I mean, by using one set of criteria I can 'claim' that the air-cooled 911 was a failure simply because it was discontinued in favour of the water-cooled lineup. And by the same type of reasoning, I can claim the water-cooled 911's are not yet proven as successes because the previous lineage of 30 some odd years was all air cooled. Either argument is suspect. Longevity criteria aren't really good measures of automobile 'success'. Else the following cars, astounding successes, would also fall into the category of 'failures':
Lambourghini Miura
Volkswagon Beetle (if we were arguing this topic in 1995)
Shelby AC Cobra
Vector
Nissan 300 Z Twin turbo
Toyota Supra
Mercedes Gull Wing
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Lambourghini Miura
Volkswagon Beetle (if we were arguing this topic in 1995)
Shelby AC Cobra
Vector
Nissan 300 Z Twin turbo
Toyota Supra
Mercedes Gull Wing
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-12-2002, 01:44 PM
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The Cayenne is the spawn of the Porsche's taste of sizable profits. The company is as strong as it has ever been and it wants more. Profit motive, the foundation for any business venture. As aesthetically unappealing as it is to some of us, it will sell. The same guy/gal looking at an X5, ML, or Lexus will "figure, hey I've always wanted a Porsche."
As for 996's quote, I don't need to repeat it; it's been done enough. The 924, 944, and 928's were not failures. Each served a purpose and ran their life cycles. As for the 928, it won engineering and design accolades, outlived it's planned life by 2 years, and was copied by other auto makers aesthetically and engineering wise (2nd Gen RX7 for looks, new Corvette drive train layout). It had a production life that ran its course.
And to clarify, I believe in every year of its production the 928 was the most expensive Porsche (save for 959). For buyers looking for a Grand Tourer, economically speaking it was a step up for previous Porsche owners, not a step down.
Other cars not being produced now that I would not consider “failures:”
Chevrolet Camero
Jaguar XJS
BMW 635
Mazda RX7
Of course I speak with some bias, but I don't believe any of my statements to be untrue.
As for 996's quote, I don't need to repeat it; it's been done enough. The 924, 944, and 928's were not failures. Each served a purpose and ran their life cycles. As for the 928, it won engineering and design accolades, outlived it's planned life by 2 years, and was copied by other auto makers aesthetically and engineering wise (2nd Gen RX7 for looks, new Corvette drive train layout). It had a production life that ran its course.
And to clarify, I believe in every year of its production the 928 was the most expensive Porsche (save for 959). For buyers looking for a Grand Tourer, economically speaking it was a step up for previous Porsche owners, not a step down.
Other cars not being produced now that I would not consider “failures:”
Chevrolet Camero
Jaguar XJS
BMW 635
Mazda RX7
Of course I speak with some bias, but I don't believe any of my statements to be untrue.
03-12-2002, 03:19 PM
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My gawd, an SUV board on Rennlist.
Think outside the box (NPI).
The market for "accessories" for these land yachts
will be huge.
Porsche Design:
Sleeping bags,tents.....all manner of camping gear...not that any of these folks would actually sleep on the ground.....more than once. The list here is nearly endless. All fitted into their own rip stop containers with proper logos, of course, leather is optional.
Which leads to:
Trailers...travel, boat, ATV, Mocycle.....colorkeyed with matching wheels. Able to lap the Nurburgring under 9 minutes while under tow.....18 inch wheels are optional if you need get under 8 minutes.
Accessorise, accessorise, accessorise.....
I'm sure I have barely scratched the surface, here.
I want the franchise.
Think outside the box (NPI).
The market for "accessories" for these land yachts
will be huge.
Porsche Design:
Sleeping bags,tents.....all manner of camping gear...not that any of these folks would actually sleep on the ground.....more than once. The list here is nearly endless. All fitted into their own rip stop containers with proper logos, of course, leather is optional.
Which leads to:
Trailers...travel, boat, ATV, Mocycle.....colorkeyed with matching wheels. Able to lap the Nurburgring under 9 minutes while under tow.....18 inch wheels are optional if you need get under 8 minutes.
Accessorise, accessorise, accessorise.....
I'm sure I have barely scratched the surface, here.
I want the franchise.
03-13-2002, 05:02 AM
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I am afraid the franchise is already taken. It is called Porsche Design. You can even get your Porsche saucepans, Porsche radio, Porsche sun glasses, Porsche tennis racket and many more items. Porsche Design and Porsche are sort of back together again. For those who do not know, Porsche Design is owned and run by Ferdinand Alexander Porsche III. He started this company initally in Stuttgart in 1972 when he was turfed out of Porsche. In 1974 he moved the whole company back to Salzburg Austria and has been there ever since. If you want a Porsche Design sleeping bag, just call him,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
03-13-2002, 12:15 PM
#54
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996cab:
I am afraid I will have to disagree with your assement of the 944. In addition to my 911, I have an 86 944 N/A with 206K miles on it. It barely burns any oil, runs flawlessly, handles great, stops great. Plus, with the exception of the power locks, everything works, even the clock. Yeah, it lacks the punch and personality of the 911 but is a very reliable, solid car to drive.
Previously, I owned an 83 944 which was a daily driver, DE car, and autocross car. After running the full 1998 DE season, autocorss season, and putting roughly 18K miles on it commuting, the only repair it needed was to tighten the left front wheel bearings. I think your assement of the 944s overall reliability is way off.
If you have owned one and had a bad experience, I think you are in the minority as everyone I know who has/had one, enjoys/enjoyed the car.
I am afraid I will have to disagree with your assement of the 944. In addition to my 911, I have an 86 944 N/A with 206K miles on it. It barely burns any oil, runs flawlessly, handles great, stops great. Plus, with the exception of the power locks, everything works, even the clock. Yeah, it lacks the punch and personality of the 911 but is a very reliable, solid car to drive.
Previously, I owned an 83 944 which was a daily driver, DE car, and autocross car. After running the full 1998 DE season, autocorss season, and putting roughly 18K miles on it commuting, the only repair it needed was to tighten the left front wheel bearings. I think your assement of the 944s overall reliability is way off.
If you have owned one and had a bad experience, I think you are in the minority as everyone I know who has/had one, enjoys/enjoyed the car.
03-15-2002, 10:08 AM
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The 'accessories' angle is right on. And, man, come on, can you imagine how EASY it would be to justify a Cayenne purchase to your wife???
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03-27-2002, 07:12 PM
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One of my favorite cars of all time is the 930/911 Turbo, and every time I've ever pointed one out to a date or a friend, the comment I heard back was, "you like those? They're so ugly."
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03-28-2002, 09:08 PM
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LOL well not everyone I know but a few people who are no longer in the inner circle. As SUV's go I don't think the Cayenne is bad looking.
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03-29-2002, 08:22 PM
#60
Christ! Turn your back for a month or two...
Hope I won't need hosed down with Purple K.
I side with Adrian's opinion on the Porsche Marque Game Plan.
They are one of, if not, the smallest auto. manufacturers on the planet. They are doing well financially, sales are solid if not up. The Cayanne is due out in late summer to mid-fall time frame. With the new assembly plant in Leipzig and a new engine plant in Stuttgart
(Zuffenhausen)there is commitment to the product.
Ever hear of Porsche bailing out on a commitment like that? I'd gamble on a 10 year production run.
Will I ever buy a new Cayanne? Nope... .
But, maybe enough pimps, rappers, dope dealers,
sports figures, lawyers... ad naseum... will buy enough of them to put one in my price range in 6 to 10 years. Thats how I got my 928.
The Carrera GT project seems to have the green light for 2003/2004 with some impressive production numbers for a car of that caliber.
BTW I plan on stealing one.
I have heard rumors of a solid racing effort in the near future.
The 911/series derivatives are still selling well.
So what's the beef? I love my 928, am interested in a 944 -complete- residing in a local junk yard. Nothing against the 911's it's just that at 6'2"/220lbs I don't fit into the car very well.
On the other hand just because there is a Porsche emblem on the car doesn't endear it to me.
Point of fact -heresy spoken here- if Yugo made the 928 - to spec. - I would still have one.
Porsche is a quality Marque with expanding horizons there are other great Marque's out there too. Can't beat a Ford F-150 for price and -loosely- quality.
If we need to settle the who's series saved the company battle we can have:
" The Annual Porsche Debate " With selected minions armed with garbage can lids and wiffle ball bats to determine the winning group. Registered combatant owners only. For a small fee $40.00 I will handle all the registration, select terrain for combatants - Botineau, North Dakota in say... January for the first debate/battle.
**** Fire folks none of us is on Porsche's Corporate Board this thread should have started with some statements/news releases from the guy's who make it happen instead of argueing over what ifs and maybes'.
Enjoy what you have, I do.
John S.
Hope I won't need hosed down with Purple K.
I side with Adrian's opinion on the Porsche Marque Game Plan.
They are one of, if not, the smallest auto. manufacturers on the planet. They are doing well financially, sales are solid if not up. The Cayanne is due out in late summer to mid-fall time frame. With the new assembly plant in Leipzig and a new engine plant in Stuttgart
(Zuffenhausen)there is commitment to the product.
Ever hear of Porsche bailing out on a commitment like that? I'd gamble on a 10 year production run.
Will I ever buy a new Cayanne? Nope... .
But, maybe enough pimps, rappers, dope dealers,
sports figures, lawyers... ad naseum... will buy enough of them to put one in my price range in 6 to 10 years. Thats how I got my 928.
The Carrera GT project seems to have the green light for 2003/2004 with some impressive production numbers for a car of that caliber.
BTW I plan on stealing one.
I have heard rumors of a solid racing effort in the near future.
The 911/series derivatives are still selling well.
So what's the beef? I love my 928, am interested in a 944 -complete- residing in a local junk yard. Nothing against the 911's it's just that at 6'2"/220lbs I don't fit into the car very well.
On the other hand just because there is a Porsche emblem on the car doesn't endear it to me.
Point of fact -heresy spoken here- if Yugo made the 928 - to spec. - I would still have one.
Porsche is a quality Marque with expanding horizons there are other great Marque's out there too. Can't beat a Ford F-150 for price and -loosely- quality.
If we need to settle the who's series saved the company battle we can have:
" The Annual Porsche Debate " With selected minions armed with garbage can lids and wiffle ball bats to determine the winning group. Registered combatant owners only. For a small fee $40.00 I will handle all the registration, select terrain for combatants - Botineau, North Dakota in say... January for the first debate/battle.
**** Fire folks none of us is on Porsche's Corporate Board this thread should have started with some statements/news releases from the guy's who make it happen instead of argueing over what ifs and maybes'.
Enjoy what you have, I do.
John S.