So after seeing every other SUV made - this is Porsche's answer?
04-19-2002, 03:40 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
If you want to see why performance isn't the only thing that counts - just look at the Subarau WRX. What a blast to drive, but it's **SO** damn ugly that It makes me ill.
The pepper-vagon had better be stunning in person, because it sure isn't in the photos!
sean
The pepper-vagon had better be stunning in person, because it sure isn't in the photos!
sean
04-19-2002, 05:32 PM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Sean Spicer:
<strong>If you want to see why performance isn't the only thing that counts - just look at the Subarau WRX. What a blast to drive, but it's **SO** damn ugly that It makes me ill. sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sean,
Great example! What a phenomenal car that could be, with a decent body.
George,
Glad to know that I am not alone.
Also, I have to agree with you on the issue of dealer support: BMW is heads above Porsche around here, which is sad. I often know more about my car than the head of the service department at the Porsche dealership (and I know a lot less than most folks on this board).
BTW, I also think "Dakar" is a great name!
<strong>If you want to see why performance isn't the only thing that counts - just look at the Subarau WRX. What a blast to drive, but it's **SO** damn ugly that It makes me ill. sean</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sean,
Great example! What a phenomenal car that could be, with a decent body.
George,
Glad to know that I am not alone.
Also, I have to agree with you on the issue of dealer support: BMW is heads above Porsche around here, which is sad. I often know more about my car than the head of the service department at the Porsche dealership (and I know a lot less than most folks on this board).BTW, I also think "Dakar" is a great name!
04-19-2002, 06:47 PM
#18
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When the 7 series first came out i remember an article which said that it would be the first time the aftermarket tuning companies would now start making bootlids (trunklids) because BMW's was so bad.
The same author stated last week that with the Cayenne the aftermarket companies will now be offering a re-shelling service to make up for the dreadful body.
It's so bizarre how right or wrong a car's design can be. I was driven around the Nice/Antibes region of france yesterday in a new Mini Cooper - that is a fantastic example of BMW getting it right.
The same author stated last week that with the Cayenne the aftermarket companies will now be offering a re-shelling service to make up for the dreadful body.
It's so bizarre how right or wrong a car's design can be. I was driven around the Nice/Antibes region of france yesterday in a new Mini Cooper - that is a fantastic example of BMW getting it right.
04-20-2002, 01:33 PM
#19
Advanced
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regard to the recent WRX aside... The reason that the Subaru can get away with being fast and ugly is because of its price. The Suby is priced well under $30k, which is a reasonably attainable amount of money for your average enthusiast. Many of us (Myself included) cannot afford mega-buck sports cars, so when a manufacturer says "0-60 in under 6, great handling, and under $30k" it can be as ugly as it wants and we will still buy it.
However, the same is not true for a $60k+ SUV produced by a leading mega-buck sports car manufacturer. It had better look damn nice (Which, it doesn't), and have eye-popping performance, or no one will buy it.
My $0.02,
Aston
Whose bloody 944 won't start...
However, the same is not true for a $60k+ SUV produced by a leading mega-buck sports car manufacturer. It had better look damn nice (Which, it doesn't), and have eye-popping performance, or no one will buy it.
My $0.02,
Aston
Whose bloody 944 won't start...
04-20-2002, 03:17 PM
#20
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milton, MA
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kevin you state...
I submit that very few of the critics can honestly number themselves as "a serious prospect" for the C or for a C-type vehicle. The pattern of purist angst has morphed, now the problems w/ the C, as you enumerated, are about the...
- introduction schedule
- styling (where's that PininFarina SUV for comparision?)
- name
- Porsche's market strategy
- the (dumb, sob) boss
- the "inside game" at PAG
My responce...
I "was" a serious prospect - but no longer. My wife and I fit the demo Fumbling Freddy lusts over. But, besides making the wrong car - he made an ugly SUV. The pattern of purest angst has only escalated since the release of the official pictures - most every magizine describes it as "Porsche's new controversial SUV", or something along those lines. And his speech at U Penn was nothing short of an insult to Porschfiles everywhere.
My point from day one has not changed. Porsche could have (and now it is clear should have) shared an existing VAG platform and made a killer estate. It would have befitted Porsches racing heritage, saved tons of money, given us the V8, hit the market faster - and Porsche could have returned to endurance racing to win (not create their own class to dominate - now that they changed the rules and kicked BMW to the curb).
If Fast Freddie's purpose was to sell more vehicles, building a killer estate would have done the trick. Instead Porsche is stuck ('er excuse me the dealers are stuck - since they forced 2 years of production on them) with an ugly, expensive, late-to-the-party SUV - while the market has moved to cross over estates.
Sorry you write well, but your words do not ring true.
I submit that very few of the critics can honestly number themselves as "a serious prospect" for the C or for a C-type vehicle. The pattern of purist angst has morphed, now the problems w/ the C, as you enumerated, are about the...
- introduction schedule
- styling (where's that PininFarina SUV for comparision?)
- name
- Porsche's market strategy
- the (dumb, sob) boss
- the "inside game" at PAG
My responce...
I "was" a serious prospect - but no longer. My wife and I fit the demo Fumbling Freddy lusts over. But, besides making the wrong car - he made an ugly SUV. The pattern of purest angst has only escalated since the release of the official pictures - most every magizine describes it as "Porsche's new controversial SUV", or something along those lines. And his speech at U Penn was nothing short of an insult to Porschfiles everywhere.
My point from day one has not changed. Porsche could have (and now it is clear should have) shared an existing VAG platform and made a killer estate. It would have befitted Porsches racing heritage, saved tons of money, given us the V8, hit the market faster - and Porsche could have returned to endurance racing to win (not create their own class to dominate - now that they changed the rules and kicked BMW to the curb).
If Fast Freddie's purpose was to sell more vehicles, building a killer estate would have done the trick. Instead Porsche is stuck ('er excuse me the dealers are stuck - since they forced 2 years of production on them) with an ugly, expensive, late-to-the-party SUV - while the market has moved to cross over estates.
Sorry you write well, but your words do not ring true.
04-20-2002, 07:01 PM
#21
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the compliment... you guys are brutal, and committed. There is consensus that a) PAG-PCNA has lost it's compass, b) Fred's at fault and c) all is lost. All part of an over-riding theme, "When Bad Things Happen to Good Sports Car Manufacturers".
The point I didn't make clearly (or maybe it is simply irrelevant) is that MY foremeost criteria in evaluating cars (& SUVs, etc.) is the car itself... not the factory, marque soul, the marketing dept., the CEO, the dealer network, the economy, the auto industry business cycle, etc. etc. Those aspects are meaningful, but not the primary basis for evaluation of a vehicle.
Other than the controversial styling (viewed in 2D only to date), the great preponderance of the critique of the C has not been about the vehicle itself, but all the tertiary issues. Given we can't actually get our hands on the damn thing yet (& Porsche's storied tradition), that's understandable.
All I'm suggesting is that patience & analytical objectivity are in order when thinking of the C as a machine - at least that's how I'm approaching it.
On all the other complaints (about PAG), the die is cast, the writing has been on the wall in many ways for many years. It isn't the company it used to be when under the control of the family, in the heyday of endurance racing, during the air-cooled era, or pre-"world car production techniques". It never will be, yet the cars that are produced remain at the top rank in the history of the automobile.
I am selfish enough to hope that the C is also a vehicle of that rank, so the company (despite whatever else they screw up) is healthy enough to indulge me w/ more nice sports cars in the future. I haven't read anything (yet) that proves the C is a fundementally flawed machine.
I personally don't want Porsche punished for the C if it "fails" - leave that to the Board & the Financial Markets. I prefer it to continue as an independent supplier of high performance sports cars AND be able to re-enter prototype racing. Clearly now, if unfortunately, that depends upon the C being successful - so I hope it is an excellent machine in spite of all the angst about soul. Wouldn't that be slightly better than it being a lousy SUV w/ a Porsche badge on the hood (FF says NO!)?
Maybe WE won't buy it, but as long as someone does, there may be hope in seeing Porsche on pole at LeMans again. I KNOW we can agree on that.
Cheers!
The point I didn't make clearly (or maybe it is simply irrelevant) is that MY foremeost criteria in evaluating cars (& SUVs, etc.) is the car itself... not the factory, marque soul, the marketing dept., the CEO, the dealer network, the economy, the auto industry business cycle, etc. etc. Those aspects are meaningful, but not the primary basis for evaluation of a vehicle.
Other than the controversial styling (viewed in 2D only to date), the great preponderance of the critique of the C has not been about the vehicle itself, but all the tertiary issues. Given we can't actually get our hands on the damn thing yet (& Porsche's storied tradition), that's understandable.
All I'm suggesting is that patience & analytical objectivity are in order when thinking of the C as a machine - at least that's how I'm approaching it.
On all the other complaints (about PAG), the die is cast, the writing has been on the wall in many ways for many years. It isn't the company it used to be when under the control of the family, in the heyday of endurance racing, during the air-cooled era, or pre-"world car production techniques". It never will be, yet the cars that are produced remain at the top rank in the history of the automobile.
I am selfish enough to hope that the C is also a vehicle of that rank, so the company (despite whatever else they screw up) is healthy enough to indulge me w/ more nice sports cars in the future. I haven't read anything (yet) that proves the C is a fundementally flawed machine.
I personally don't want Porsche punished for the C if it "fails" - leave that to the Board & the Financial Markets. I prefer it to continue as an independent supplier of high performance sports cars AND be able to re-enter prototype racing. Clearly now, if unfortunately, that depends upon the C being successful - so I hope it is an excellent machine in spite of all the angst about soul. Wouldn't that be slightly better than it being a lousy SUV w/ a Porsche badge on the hood (FF says NO!)?
Maybe WE won't buy it, but as long as someone does, there may be hope in seeing Porsche on pole at LeMans again. I KNOW we can agree on that.
Cheers!
04-20-2002, 08:22 PM
#22
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Hi MPM
"If Fast Freddy's purpose was to sell more vehicles, building a killer estate would have done the trick."
You're right that estates are all the rage at the moment, and I'm sure porsche-badged one would sell very well.
I'm sure just as many purists would be up in arms over PAG building a station wagon.
My guess is they will find more venues for racing an SUV than a estate/station wagon.
I agree with Kevin that we are best off with an independent company. I think when Fast/Fumbling Ferd (not Fred -- Ferd as in Piech) retires, we'll see Porsche back at the top of endurance racing.
I too will wait to see and drive the actual car.
IMO, Porsche has never let us down. They haven't built any bad cars, but they have built ugly ones before.
Is it fun to drive?
No one knows yet.
Mike
"If Fast Freddy's purpose was to sell more vehicles, building a killer estate would have done the trick."
You're right that estates are all the rage at the moment, and I'm sure porsche-badged one would sell very well.
I'm sure just as many purists would be up in arms over PAG building a station wagon.
My guess is they will find more venues for racing an SUV than a estate/station wagon.
I agree with Kevin that we are best off with an independent company. I think when Fast/Fumbling Ferd (not Fred -- Ferd as in Piech) retires, we'll see Porsche back at the top of endurance racing.
I too will wait to see and drive the actual car.
IMO, Porsche has never let us down. They haven't built any bad cars, but they have built ugly ones before.
Is it fun to drive?
No one knows yet.
Mike
04-20-2002, 08:46 PM
#23
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milton, MA
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kevin - yeah, pole (and checkered) at LeMans - but the Pepper-mill has put that dream back 2 to 4 years. By then maybe even Cadillac will have won...
I had a feeling that your thoughts were geared to keeping Porsche independent, but that will now come into question. Clearly the success of this thing has the future of the marque riding on it. And if it fails, there goes Porsche's independence.
However, Porsche merging with say VAG, might actually be a good thing. A Honda/BMW merger is not out of the question, so if Porsche really wants to compete worldwide it might be time to team up with its old relatives at VAG. Even if this rig is successful, the hope of Porsche remaining independent may be fleeting.
My understanding of the Pieches and the Porsches is it is Germany's version of "Dynasty". But if they could hook up, Porsche would be able to go deep with sports cars and improve the sporting components of the VAG product line.
Imagine "Big Reds" on S cars, Porsche tuned suspensions on GTIs, and the fun Porsche engineers could have with Audi power plants. In return, Porsche could spend more money on the design of its cars (lets face it, the 996 may have been a technical evolution, but it wasn't a visual evolution), better interior materials, and yes - racing!
Enjoy the rest of your weekend...
I had a feeling that your thoughts were geared to keeping Porsche independent, but that will now come into question. Clearly the success of this thing has the future of the marque riding on it. And if it fails, there goes Porsche's independence.
However, Porsche merging with say VAG, might actually be a good thing. A Honda/BMW merger is not out of the question, so if Porsche really wants to compete worldwide it might be time to team up with its old relatives at VAG. Even if this rig is successful, the hope of Porsche remaining independent may be fleeting.
My understanding of the Pieches and the Porsches is it is Germany's version of "Dynasty". But if they could hook up, Porsche would be able to go deep with sports cars and improve the sporting components of the VAG product line.
Imagine "Big Reds" on S cars, Porsche tuned suspensions on GTIs, and the fun Porsche engineers could have with Audi power plants. In return, Porsche could spend more money on the design of its cars (lets face it, the 996 may have been a technical evolution, but it wasn't a visual evolution), better interior materials, and yes - racing!
Enjoy the rest of your weekend...
04-20-2002, 09:20 PM
#24
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Kevin,
Personally, I do not think that "all is lost" at Porsche. I just think that the company has experienced a shift in doctrine from "excellence at any cost", racing, and sports cars to "profit and yuppie marketing at any cost". Perhaps, this does reflect current economic reality, and perhaps their current ethos is largely influenced by the financial crisis of the early 1990's, but the fact remains that things have changed - and not necessarily for the better from an enthusiast's point of view. Since I hope to drive it for a lifetime, I like having an over-engineered (and beautiful, IMO) car like the 993.
With respect to racing, I would like to have seen Porsche raise its game to compete with the recent successful BMW machines, rather than effectively return the GT racing scene to a single-marque event. Competition improves the breed, and happens to be a hell of a lot more interesting for the fans, even the diehard Porsche ones.
I have absolutely no problem with Porsche building an SUV or station wagon, as long as it competes in some sort of rally racing and is one of the absolute best products on the market in its segment - both in performance and appearance and build quality. Obviously, Porsche is still capable of creating automotive "eye candy" - just look at the Carrera GT (looks good in 2D and specifications, no?).
Personally, I do not think that "all is lost" at Porsche. I just think that the company has experienced a shift in doctrine from "excellence at any cost", racing, and sports cars to "profit and yuppie marketing at any cost". Perhaps, this does reflect current economic reality, and perhaps their current ethos is largely influenced by the financial crisis of the early 1990's, but the fact remains that things have changed - and not necessarily for the better from an enthusiast's point of view. Since I hope to drive it for a lifetime, I like having an over-engineered (and beautiful, IMO) car like the 993.
With respect to racing, I would like to have seen Porsche raise its game to compete with the recent successful BMW machines, rather than effectively return the GT racing scene to a single-marque event. Competition improves the breed, and happens to be a hell of a lot more interesting for the fans, even the diehard Porsche ones.
I have absolutely no problem with Porsche building an SUV or station wagon, as long as it competes in some sort of rally racing and is one of the absolute best products on the market in its segment - both in performance and appearance and build quality. Obviously, Porsche is still capable of creating automotive "eye candy" - just look at the Carrera GT (looks good in 2D and specifications, no?).
04-20-2002, 11:03 PM
#25
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Hi Doc
The Carrera GT is indeed beautiful -- with one exception... those big door scoops are a little too much. (at least in my o)
I saw the car in person at the LA auto show last year. Everything else about it is gorgeous.
As an example of how photos don't always do the car justice, the C GT is actually quite large. Much bigger than a 993. It's big like a 550 Maranello.
MPM
In my o, the only company that has done well after being acquired is Ferrari. I think in part because it is such a national institution they can't afford to let it slip.
Perhaps the family ties could help Porsche maintain its integrity, but I think Ferd is the only family member there, and I believe he retires this spring.
Like Anir, I just want the company to keep building great sportscars that can be driven everyday. I'll forgi ve them any concessions they have to make in order to accomplish that goal.
Have a good weekend.
M in C
The Carrera GT is indeed beautiful -- with one exception... those big door scoops are a little too much. (at least in my o)
I saw the car in person at the LA auto show last year. Everything else about it is gorgeous.
As an example of how photos don't always do the car justice, the C GT is actually quite large. Much bigger than a 993. It's big like a 550 Maranello.
MPM
In my o, the only company that has done well after being acquired is Ferrari. I think in part because it is such a national institution they can't afford to let it slip.
Perhaps the family ties could help Porsche maintain its integrity, but I think Ferd is the only family member there, and I believe he retires this spring.
Like Anir, I just want the company to keep building great sportscars that can be driven everyday. I'll forgi ve them any concessions they have to make in order to accomplish that goal.
Have a good weekend.
M in C
04-20-2002, 11:36 PM
#26
8th Gear
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Condemned to Hell before birth - amazing. I too agree it looks rather ugly, but, then to me all SUVs (yes, including the X5) have been designed mostly from a utilitarian perspective. Wagons are car-like, SUVs are nicely shaped breadboxes and IMO will never be "awesome designs" where you get sweaty palms and forget what you were doing when you see one. So the best it can be is "nice" and it sure looks nice to me. I recall laughing at the new Mini when featured in articles just last year (BMW had one here in Colorado in Nov for a photo shoot) and when I pulled up next to it I really appreciated it ..... and really liked the styling inside and out. In person impressions is what it's all about. Read an article today that 25K are planned for the first year of production, and that the allotted Cayennes that are slated for UK are already sold. I think the SUV is mostly a US market, it'll be interesting to see how it sells here.
04-21-2002, 12:17 AM
#27
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milton, MA
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tim, according to my local high volume dealer (Clair) they are sold out because the factory has forced 2 years of inventory on the dealer network.
And they are not happy about it...
And they are not happy about it...
04-21-2002, 03:29 AM
#28
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Tim Demel:
<strong>I too agree it looks rather ugly...it sure looks nice to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tim,
So you think it looks "rather ugly", but "nice" as well?
Mike,
Hope you're doing well. I'd love to see the Carrera GT in person. I did buy the 1:43 Minichamps model, which is beautiful. Unfortunately, it's the closest I'll get to the real version.
I sure hope they race some derivative of it.
<strong>I too agree it looks rather ugly...it sure looks nice to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tim,
So you think it looks "rather ugly", but "nice" as well?
Mike,
Hope you're doing well. I'd love to see the Carrera GT in person. I did buy the 1:43 Minichamps model, which is beautiful. Unfortunately, it's the closest I'll get to the real version.
I sure hope they race some derivative of it.
04-21-2002, 03:54 AM
#29
8th Gear
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anir,
Yes, overall ugly. But for an SUV it's right there with the best of them. SUV's are fugly.... that's right, fugly. But it's just as fugly as the X5. Just watch, the VW will have a better design.
Yes, overall ugly. But for an SUV it's right there with the best of them. SUV's are fugly.... that's right, fugly. But it's just as fugly as the X5. Just watch, the VW will have a better design.
04-21-2002, 01:07 PM
#30
Pro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Milton, MA
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In todays NYT, Lincoln announced that they are stopping production of the Blackwood - only 5 months after it went on sale ($52-55,000), due to slow sales (only 549 units sold verse a 10,000 unit target). Lincoln blames slow sales on time delays from prototype to production, while Cadillac rushed the Escalade EXT into showrooms (3,000 units sold). It also goes on to say that it was impractical as a pick-up, and the short bed (carpeted with an easily dingable stainless steel liner)was worthless.
However, this in part furthers the arguement that Porsche is way too late to an oversold NA truck/SUV market. And if the initial mass market reaction is anything like views of car-nuts on boards like Rennlist (who actually spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff), Porsche may have made a fatal bet. At this rate, by the time this thing shows up it may be after thought already. Simply DOA...
12,500 units may have been stuffed into the dealer network, but how many will move off the lots? If the dealers take the hit Porsche will still lose.
However, this in part furthers the arguement that Porsche is way too late to an oversold NA truck/SUV market. And if the initial mass market reaction is anything like views of car-nuts on boards like Rennlist (who actually spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff), Porsche may have made a fatal bet. At this rate, by the time this thing shows up it may be after thought already. Simply DOA...
12,500 units may have been stuffed into the dealer network, but how many will move off the lots? If the dealers take the hit Porsche will still lose.