ltc

Personally, I don't agree with a Cayenne only run group. There are already enough run groups (Green, Yellow, Blue/White, Black, Red) all trying to get as much time time as possible in the course of a track day.
The last thing I want to do is be sitting around watching a bunch of fat pigs drving around wearing out a set of tires and brake pads, then sitting around watiing for a tow truck big enough to drag one of the aforementioned pigs out of a runoff area/pond/bog.
But, it's not my decision, that's up to the elected PCA officials and the local DE chairs.
IIRC, WAY less than 10% of Cayenne owners actually use thier Cayennes to tow, even though they may be equipped with 1D6 or 1D8.
Now, how many of them do you think will actually use the vehicle on the track? As I said, for a Green/Yellow....hey, this is fun.....occasional DE, fine, whatever.
Sorry, the PCNA targeted Cayenne demographic is NOT the person I want to be on the track with.

BostonDMD

Well, Ltc, why don't you tell us how you really feel!
BTW, I completely agree with you, and I think a Cayenne is not a sports car, but a wonderful sport utility vehicle...
Boy,Lewis, I still can't stop laughing...

Shamus

If Lewis won't, I will.

BostonDMD

Shamus, where have you been?

Let's us get together, maybe Lewis will change his mind and join us!

MadFox

You're supposed to confirm the mugsho.... er, wait, picture of lewis in the WANTED PIC of you thread..!!

sigs

Ouch, ltc, I didn't mean to drill into what must be your last nerve.

DMD, maybe you could help us out with some lidocaine for a nerve block. Skip the epi, I don't think he needs any more in his system.

For any of you Cayenne owners who may be "new to Porsche," consider ltc's post your unofficial "welcome" from the general membership of the "real" Porsche owners' PCA. Some of us actually think the Cayennes belong in the same garages as our 911s, but we try to keep that quiet, lest we be exhiled. Some even traded their 911s for their Cayennes. They're the folks in the back with dark glasses and their heads down.

But, seriously, ltc, I'm not lobbying for a special Cayenne class in Club Racing, just a little more hospitality at DE events, etc. Otherwise, let's just be honest and tell the folks who only own Cayennes that their dues (and car payments) aren't worth as much as those of the guys with Cup cars, or even those with 924s. Besides, if we take your statement to the ultimate conclusion, you really don't want to be on the track with the PCNA-targeted demographic for 997s, Caymans, or Boxsters, either, do you? Those willing to get proper instruction and go to the track aren't in the mainstream demographic, for ANY of the mass-market models.

ltc

For the record, I don't use lidocaine or novacaine when I go to the dentist....no, I have no idea why either.

Cayenne Club racing class....now THAT would be fun to watch.....sort of like watching those Europeans race tractor trailers.......very impressive.


In the lower (instructed) run groups, I've seen a few Cayennes at the track and they have been treated the same as anyone else.

I don't agree with that statement.

Those willing to get proper instruction and go to the track are likely to NOT be driving a Cayenne, at least not for very long.
OK, so if I have a Porsche tractor, can I bring THAT to a DE? It IS a Porsche, so why not?
I'm sorry, but there is a reason you simply don't see a 5500# race car with a high CG.
I simply wouldn't feel safe being on track with a Cayenne, that's all, for the reasons I listed.

ltc

IIRC, there was a death at Lime Rock Park last year involving an open cockpit car (Radical?) and a tin top (Acura?).

Suffice it to say, mixing open and closed cockpit cars CAN be an issue.
I would imagine that a 914 and a Cayenne would be an issue in an on track incident, but that's just my 2 cents.

I'd ask Sir Isaac Newton his thoughts on a fast heavier object's effect on a slower lighter object, but unfortunately he's busy at the moment having an argument with Larry.

MadFox

I love Sir Newton.. I quoted his theories .. well really axioms! ... when the boys were teen-agers and would wrestle with dear old dad (that would be me). My favorite "twist" on Sir Newton was... "the law of gross tonage and gravity still applies to pip-squeaks trying to "pin" their beloved father in the den!"

So, to your point ltc, we don't want to go there with a Cayenne driver "newbie" at the track potentially rolling over nearly 3 tons on to any of the other PAG fleet of sportscars. As W's father would say, "not going to do it.. wouldn't be prudent"

sigs

Okay, I can't resist one more shot, and then I'll leave it alone. This is kind of like arguing with a spouse: I'll never change anyone's mind, the best I can hope for is to convince them I'm not stupid.

I would never try to buck Sir Newton, though I used to try to challenge some of his more famous observations by jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. Maybe some of those hard landings have affected my judgment. And, since ltc and MadFox are equally outstanding in their fields (though ltc might demure and tell you his is a poppy field), I am NOT arguing that the Cayennes should be on the track with smaller cars at racing speeds with competitive drivers, especially since I am occasionally IN one of those smaller cars and (for the record) have not YET been there in my Cayenne.

As for "newbies in Cayennes," isn't this why we have instructors and classes at these events? And my point about slower, smaller vehicles (which, admittedly, wasn't well stated) had nothing to do with the physics of momentum that clearly re-enforces ltc's arguments, but more that, given the breadth of some of the classes, I'd rather be on the track with a skilled, courteous, fast driver in a CTTS than a relative newbie in a Miata. What you are saying is that you would rather have a run-in with driver B and what I am saying is that I'd rather AVOID a run-in with either of them.

ltc, your point about having too many classes already goes to the point of having these events in the first place. Are they to promote camaraderie and driving skills among Porsche owners in general, or are they to provide the most experienced drivers (many of whom are well enough off and sufficiently dedicated to spend some of our money on private track membership, instead of on upgrading our exhaust systems - again) more time to race against their friends? If the latter, then your assumptions are more than appropriate, since your track time is almost certainly safe from any potential influx of new GT owners. If the former, then they should offer appropriate classes for Cayennes, Panameras, and, yes, even Porsche diesel tractors, if Porsche builds a fast, street-legal version with a ridiculous mark-up that becomes one of their best selling models. In a perfect world, we'd have enough track time and enough participants to split our classes to the gnat's eyelash (at the Birmingham PDE, they even tracked the Cayenne Ss in separate groups from the Turbos). Until then, life is a compromise. I just disagree with our revered colleague, ltc, about which compromise should be made. I guess it really boils down to a fundamental question of how much these events should be weighted toward the "tow it to the track" vehicles vs. the "drive it to the track" vehicles. This is not a new argument and, no surprise, I'm STILL in the minority.

I'll quit struggling, now, and take my meds like a good boy.

ltc

Poopy field?.....am I knee deep in something and don't know it?

OK, so I MAY have a FEW issues regarding the Cayenne, Dr W, Peter the Great, et. al., but there are somewhat valid reasons.....but that is for another time.

The Cayenne is just different, at least when it comes to "traditional" Porsches.

OK, so it's more VAG than any other Porsche that has come before it, a close second to the VAG orphaned 924.
OK, so it weighs more than any other Porsche....by a ton (literally)

I guess I just don't handle "different" well, especially when it comes to PCA DE and Cayennes.

As for DE being DE vs Club Racing prep....point taken. Since I don't race, I'm in the recreational DE (just a putz driving around looking for a way to unwind and relax) camp.

BostonDMD

I remember the late Larry required meds too......

What is it with Cayennne owners, why are so many meds required?

A nice bottle of Chianti does the job for me......

sigs

At least for me, it requires meds to forget how much I spent on a frickin' SUV, how much I'll probably continue to spend on it, and how I'll have to deal with PCNA and its dealers for service.

At my age, if I drink that much Chianti, my head explodes.

BostonDMD

Oh, I didn't mean I drank the entire bottle all by myself!
I have friends (non Cayenne owners) that enjoy my wine selections (and my gourmet meals).....

I am italian, we are big on great food and great wine and.......

MadFox

Oh Man, like I wrote to Jaro on the other thread... now, you're braggin'... Italian great food, AGREE.... Italian great wine, SOMEWHAT AGREE... and Italian great ........... DISAGREE!!

come on, we all know that Italians are like their Ferraris.. usually quick off the line.. but don't last long (although I have no PERSONAL knowledge.. just rumor has it)