JARO

winter in Poland sucks....took the plunge and bought a condo in Warsaw...fricking real estate prices there are going up faster then.......well something..hahaha.....

pingwrx

So I got the price and option list for the Audi Q7 from the dealer, (this is the same dealer who's been servicing my Cayenne S). So just for the heck of it, I asked the dealer to give me a trade-in value for my Cayenne S, (I have previously checked the trade-in value for my 2004 with Kelly Blue Book, kbb.com, and it was anywhere between $47,000-$49,000) but I wanted to see what the dealer would say. So he took down all the info and said he would get back to me within 24 hours.

When he called back with the numbers, I was a bit surprised. He said that there are a lot of used Cayennes coming into the market place and said that it was very difficult to find buyers for used Cayennes in the secondary market (could have been your typical dealer BS). Anyway the number he gave me was $42,000! My Cayenne S has 17,200 miles and its loaded except for the convenience package; this is telling me that the Cayenne (for what ever reason) are not holding their resell value....bummer for us Cayenne owners.

MadFox

ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, now you know why ltc and I are not happy about the glitches and the flood of Cayennes... we're stuck! Come on in the "naked" Cayenne to 100K miles sub-forum is starting to grow. We've drunk the Kool-aid, seen the enemy and he are us!

ltc

Are you sitting down? I hate to be the one to break this to you.....
THESE VEHICLES ARE NOT INVESTMENTS.
(they are actually mass produced commodities, VW's wearing a Porsche crest)

Does this word sound familiar:
OVERPRODUCED
OK, how about this phrase:
MASS MARKETING HOARDES OF NEW PORSCHE OWNERS

Welcome to the 'New" Porsche. Unless you've been sleeping under a rock, just about every new Porsche is produced at numbers which lead to huge depreciation.
Is this a mistake or oversight?
No. PCNA marketing plans are DESIGNED to have an ample supply of LOW COST Porsches available to attract the 'first time Porshce owner who NEVER thought they would EVER afford a Porsche'.
Do you think there is a 'desirable' or 'exclusive' Cayenne? How about a Boxster for $20K? You can buy a 996TT for less money than a 993TT.

Just take a few moments on Porsches CPO website, and look at the prices for CPO vehicles, compared to their stickers and trade in values.

Porsche, the company synonymous with the '911' is slowly dying; Porsche the marketing driven 'car for every client' company.....who also sells this 911 derivative, is evolving.

JW3

ltc, you have painted a nasty picture with those words. I heard the same thing when H-D brought out the new EVO engine (the end of the world) and then again with the new Twin Cam 88. Doomsday was upon us again and again. Is it not better for a product - even Porsche - to evolve or should they have stayed some where between the 356 and the 911 Whale Tail of the '80s? Some think so, and some others think 'Porsche' went out of the 'Porsche' business around 1990. I will admit, the current Porsche automobiles have their share of problems, but what modern day automobile doesn't have problems with all of the electrical stuff they carry - and I will say it - Lexus, Infiniti and Honda have almost none (so they say). My only Porsche car, a '61 356C, was as much fun riding my old Harley - tighten all things before (some times during) and after a trip.
I have never purchased an automobile for investment, resale, or because it is 'the' in thing, or because someone else has one. I obtain the beast because of my need for exeprience. I do, of course, hope it will be a positive experience but when it isn't, I move on and chalk up the lesson learned - so I don't do it again (hopefully). Sorry to be long winded but this is an automible that is in fact going through a tremendous evolutionary process in order to remain a marque that has a glorious past and hopefully long and glorious future. And when it comes to the Cayenne, remember, F. Porsche helped build a 4X4 before the 959 or 911 were ever on a drawing on the board. Okay, I'm done. Bring it on. JW

MadFox

My two cents. I agree with your analysis for the most part; however, as an engineer and an admirer of Porsche for four decades, I was a "tad" disappointed in the Cayenne. See posts that say "I love my Cayenne, I hate my Cayenne". I think the evolution of Porsche is understandable with liability costs, development costs, etc. BUT ----------
and it is a Big But (I like big buts (not butts) and I cannot lie): Porsche executed the delivery of the Cayenne in BAD form. It was NOT ready and they suffered tremendously in the marketplace with their German arrogance (see zee MF posts about vhere execs zay tell it like it iz). JD Power aside, the execution of the Cayenne should have been closer to a Lexus than a Ford. Lastly, the LOVE part of it is the engine, suspension, and truly being "the" SUV for everyone to try and compete with (thus the new M Class, BMW re-do, Jeep with 500HP, etc.).. As an engineer and an enthusiast we all get P.O'ed when the engineers FAILED to adequately meet proper QUALITY CONTROL standards for the PORSCHE namecrest. IT's Sunday, time to go hear another sermon. CIAO!

JW3

Well said. I never thought of it from this perspective (that of an engineer). And once again, I am enlightened. JW

ltc

Where to begin.....
History.
Yes, F Porsche built a 4x4 long before the 959. At the 1900 Paris Exposition, a 23 year old F Porsche showed the Lohner-Porsche, an early electric later converted to hybrid vehicle, perhaps the first true hybrid ever created/driven/raced(!). So, suffice it to say, from that thru the 356, 911, and on, F. Porsche always brought his "A" game to work. Men like him don't come around very often. Icons of design.

Modern era.....and this is opinion.
Dr W has a vision for Porsche, driven STRICTLY by the requirement to MAINTAIN independence. PERIOD. All other priorities are secondary....and I mean ALL other priorities.

Yes, the early 90's the company almost went under. Agreed, would have been tragic...although the Cayenen would never have happend....ah, what could have been.
However, in an effort to protect the company, what is the cost you are willing to pay?

OK, fine. However, what is the cost, to the marque, of this plan?
Apart from the slick PCNA Marketing: Pure Porsche, Porsche DNA, (my personal favorite: integrated 'dry' sump name for a wet sump) et. al, how much of these cars are truly Porsches, at least in the classically considered sense?
At what point to profits supercede quality, performance, reverence to history?
At what point does overproduction begin to DILUTE the value of the marque?

Why does the most profitable car maker on the planet continue to produce a block with an RMS failure mode, FAR in excess of anything seen previously? Do they not have the $$ to simply redesign the block (years ago when first known and replace the motors); rather it is handled quite differently today.

How about A506 cowboy belt buckles? Why didn't the most profitable car company on the planet simply replace the seat belt mechanism on affected vehicles with the redesigned units already deployed, rather than put a 3" piece of steel across your pelvis? At 70+ G's in a frontal impact, would you want a piece of steel pressing on your pelvic bones? Ever see anything like that in any other Porshces? Or any other cars? Is this an example of Porsche DNA, Pure Porsche?

In the end, it matters not. The die has been cast, the plan is being followed, the Panamera is the last chapter in that plan, so it is what it is.

Ask long time Porsche dealers or Porsche workers how the company has changed.

Yes, change is good, Darwinism applied to vehicle design is good....however you have to be careful how much you are willing to dilute the gene pool.

And don't even get me started on oil changes............

pingwrx

This is interesting stuff...

I never looked at the CS as an investment, however, I never thought their resell values would drop like a Ford vehicle; I thought they would be closer to a Lexus and Acura... or at least hold up close to Kelly Blue Book figures!

Yes, very well put.

Ok guys...so in addition to the Q7, I'm looking at a 997 Cabriolet. What's your opinions on the 997s? Same as the Cayennes?

ltc

Overproduced and hence poor resale (go ahead and check 996 prices...997's will be no different) and since it does not use the M64/GT1 derived block from the 996TT/GT2/GT3, it's susceptible to Rear Main Seal defects.

Wander over to the 996/997 forums and search for Rear Main Seal.

PCNA will give you TWO RMS replacements MAX, after that you're on your own. They used to give you a "new" engine....but it wasn't really "new" and it wasn't really "redesigned"....it was just someone else's RMS engine that was returned and remanufactured.

However, in a bizarre twist of fate, a recent Pano Tech Q&A article discussed the use of the Cayenne's Rear Main Seal as an attempt get better reliablity for 986/996/987/997 Rear Main Seal problems.....always knew the Cayenne would be good for something....parts donor.

texas911

Finally saw the Q7 here at the Houston Autoshow and barf, the interior design totally sucks. Audi looks like they hired Bangle to design the interior. And the exterior isn't any better. Get another Cayenne.

As for the RMS for the 997, there have been a couple reported but overall, they look like they fixed it. Hardly any reports lately. The 997 overproduced? You mean they are meeting the demands for new cars? Who cares? The 997 is one heck of a car, go test drive one and you'll see.

MadFox

Thanks for calling us guys!
As for my personal opinion about other Porsches after my experience with the Cayenne, I diverge slightly from my meds applied "villa" roommate. I wouldn't buy a Cayman, for example, for several years and told the GM and everyone at the dealership that (and when I say everyone, I mean it! Because we break bread and drink coffee together AT LEAST monthly). I DO have the sales guys looking for a 997 CPO cab. I think that the RMS situation in the latest iteration is MO' better... but if you're one of the unlucky SOB's that gets one then you're stuck, thus to me it is only worth it if you can go 100K miles and 6 years from purchase. Also, I will consider another Cayenne after 100K naked miles if I have no major problems between now and then.

Personally, I love the look of the 997 cab. but it may take a year for me to find the "right" one. I'm unwilling to "birth" my own with a special order based on what I've read about the RMS etc. and thus have a potential problem after 50K miles because Porsche's are not capable of being ext. warrantied in most cases and especially in Hawaii . Now, you can always go up one more step to a TT cab. and no RMS issues but that's when the $$$ really start to fly!

racer_65

I occasionally see posts that indicate the purpose of the Cayenne is to generate profits for the company, so that the company can keep on making sportscars.

I beg to differ with that position. If Cayenne generates profits, that must mean people want the product. There is nothing wrong with a car company making a product people want.

I personally think the concept of a Porsche SUV is a terrific one. If you'd like to have a SUV, and also like to have a Porsche, you can get both in one car. If you'd like to have a Porsche, but also have a family, then Cayenne is the ideal choice. If you want to drive your Porsche everyday, but you visit Home Depot occasionally and need to haul stuff, then Cayenne fits the bill. Sure, driving a sports car is fun, but the idea of driving around in a 911 all the time isn't all that enticing to me. I need something more comfortable. On long trips, the Cayenne again will come out ahead. If you take an air-cooled 911 from San Francisco to LA, your ears will be ringing by the time you arrive.