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Hi there - my name is Laura & I help run the motors division of Vision Motorsports, Inc. in Laguna Hills, CA. We are a Porsche-only operation and have built several engines currently powering Planet-9er cars.
. . . . We also have a crate engine program, should that ever interest you.
Bill,
As you know Laura did work at Vision, however she left some time ago. I do not know about potential overalap in time among the posts, but I can confirm that Laura no longer works at Vision and has not for some time.
Hi there - my name is Laura & I help run the motors division of Vision Motorsports, Inc. in Laguna Hills, CA. We are a Porsche-only operation and have built several engines currently powering Planet-9er cars.
. . . . We also have a crate engine program, should that ever interest you.
Bro - I was there on a temporary basis in order to help out while Roland was out of the office. I wasn't there before, I haven't been there since. I don't work there. They work on both of my Turbos because they are, in fact, the BEST. Based on your responses to other people in this thread, it is clear that you are an extremely angry person. Life's too short; let it go, let it go!
Last edited by HauteWheels; 02-19-2015 at 09:24 PM.
Bro - I was there on a temporary basis in order to help out while Roland was out of the office. I wasn't there before, I haven't been there since. I don't work there. They work on both of my Turbos because they are, in fact, the BEST. Based on your responses to other people in this thread, it is clear that you are an extremely angry person. Life's too short; let it go, let it go!
Just sticking up for paying sponsers of the forums
I am the O.P. of this thread and I apologize that it has taken so much time to bring any news to the table. However, I could really use some more advice because my Porsche nightmare continues...
After doing as much research as I could and consulting this forum, the internet, and having phone conversations with mechanics across the country, my impression was that a used motor would be a poor investment. So I invested another 11,500$. My hope was to get it fixed and sell it at about 18,000$. I spent 9000$ with shipping on a re-manufactured engine with an LN-engineering double-row bearing from a reputable shop in Costa Mesa, CA. And I paid 2,500 dollars to a prominent Porsche shop in Buckhead, GA to do the R&R. They have had the car for the last five months, so they have had the vehicle in their possession for about 5 times as long as I have. They returned the car to me 3 days ago...
So I get to the shop, and they hand me an invoice that is over 600$ higher than we had initially agreed. They claimed that my drive-train had been destroyed and needed to be completely rebuilt. I thought that this was odd, as I had spoken extensively with the mechanics, encouraging them over the course of the first few weeks to look for any problems outside of the engine. I had done everything in my power, as a car buyer, to make sure that I was not throwing good money after bad. So I call the proprietor on the phone, raising this point, and he quickly agrees to take the 2,500$ that we had initially agreed upon. He then said something flippant and asked to speak to the office manager.
So I drive the car 30 miles home, and I notice that there are a number of minor parts missing from the exterior, there is an eyesore ding in the hood that cracked the paint, the wheels have gone to rust, and there is a violent knocking sound when I cold start the motor the following day (which resulted in a check engine light.) Nobody at the shop had told me about any of these problems, but collected my 2500$ and left me to discover the missing parts, damage, and motor malfunction on my own. The car has been sitting in the driveway since.
I made a recording of the noise, and called the shop to ask about how serious it was and what it could possibly be. The technician, who I could hear casually talking in the background, would not come to the phone, which was a first. So I begin to describe the noise to the office assistant who had collected my payment only the day before. He promptly interrupts me to tell me that they do not warranty anything from third parties.
I received a call back from the proprietor and I began to ask him about the noise. I wasn't finger pointing, just seeking information, as he is an expert and I am not. He became preemptively defensive. Instead of giving me any advice about possible problems or what to do, he went out of his way to assert that he could not be responsible and that the car was operating just fine when he gave it back to me the day before. It was difficult to get a word in edgewise, but after 15 minutes on the phone he finally agreed to take another look.
I then called the man who sold me the motor in California, and spoke to the proprietor of that establishment. He always seems very knowledgeable and honest, and gives the impression of being a nice and amiable fellow. He seemed pretty reasonable and asked to be put in touch with my local shop. I am going to flatbed the Porsche back to Buckhead on Monday and TRY to put everyone on the same page.
However, the bottom line for me right now is that after spending 15k on the car and 11.5k on the new motor, I have now spent 26,500$ on an '03 Boxster that has been in my physical possession for less than 6 weeks!
So I really need advice! As a customer, what should my disposition be towards the parties involved? How should I proceed?
In regards to the noise that my car is making, I could really use some advice as to what it might be. I recorded a video of it and thought someone here might be able to weigh in. There was a metallic quality to the "pops" that isn't quite as distinct in the video.
The current status of the car is that it is sitting in the driveway with a check-engine light. After recording the video, I went and borrowed an OBDII from a friend, but I had turned the car off so fast when it threw the first CE light it came back code zero. I was a little too timid to start it again that day. I built up the courage to start it again moment ago, and the noises were absent but the check engine light came back on. I turned it back off and it instructed me to drive it to the service station. Yeah, I'm thinking flatbed. So tomorrow I am going to borrow the OBDII again, and see what it says before returning the car on Monday.
It will not be cheap, but Jake will treat you fairly and fix your motor. IMHO, he knows more about these motors than anyone else in the country.
I've already spoken with the OP. He's local to us and I gave him many pointers. One of those pointers was not to repair the car if he was only going to sell it after it was repaired. I told him the repair process may not be a positive experience and may not last long enough to sell the car. Why? Because I deal with this all the time.
To the OP:
-After hearing the sounds in your video I can tell the engine has low compression while on the starter. The mechanical noises are far from normal as well. Do not start it up at all until the engine has been inspected closely.
- Give the shop and the engine provider the chance to support their product. Posting here first isn't fair to them.
- Did you inspect the car at the time of pick up for the damages?
Nothing is more expensive than a cheap Porsche engine. No one understands that until they experience it.
The question of selling the car is something that I am frequently back and forth on. Initially when I committed the money I suppose I was thinking that it would be for me to keep. This weekend I have, for obvious reasons, been leaning the other way.
And you're right, it is a bit premature to go ranting about it. I debated with myself whether or not to post. However, I am really upset with my local shop for not telling me anything about these issues. When I had spoken on the phone to the mechanic who told me I could pick up my car, he told me "and we'll go from there" which I thought was suspicious. He was very tight lipped when I went to pick up the car and he actually told me that he did not want to talk about the repair. So from the moment after I paid them, it seemed that no one wanted to talk to me.
I was so distracted by my issues with their invoice that I'm afraid I did not really do an inspection. I got it home before I even realized the rubber boots around the license plate had not been replaced. My ride was waiting impatiently, and at that point I had every reason to trust that all was well. And I suppose I was also in a hurry, to hop in and see how my new motor was running.
However, all of these problems became apparent to me over the course of only 30 miles and 24 hours. So it seems to strain credulity that the shop knew nothing about problems that were immediately apparent. And in hindsight there were hints, both from the mechanic and from the delays, that all may not be well. I don't know anything about who or what could be responsible, (I feel it is actually less likely that the local shop is at fault), but the failure to communicate anything to me about these very obvious issues is testing my faith in their competence and honesty.
Also, they made it very clear on the phone that they want to be paid more money to make it work correctly, either from me or the guy in L.A. who sold me the motor. The proprietor says to me that a motor installation is simple, there is basically only one connection and that there is no way that his technician could have messed it up. He also says the car was running perfectly when he gave it back to me, which just seems unlikely for a number of reasons. That's why I need advice, because I don't know what the best attitude or disposition I should take with the involved parties to communicate effectively and get this (hopefully) sorted out. I don't even know precisely what their responsibilities are to me, the customer. And while I do have a warranty on the motor for 12 months and 12k miles, another 2500$ R&R plus 1000$ for shipping seems a bit ridiculous for a car that just left the shop.
try to get the code for the cel and keep that info to yourself [to be used as an honesty check]. how many miles did the r+r shop put on the car road testing ? i would hope not less than 25 miles. i would be with the car at the shop [flatbed-ed]when they start it up cold so they can hear the noise. give the shop a chance to make things right FOR THEIR WORK. remember its like going to a restaurant with your own food ......you got the motor....which was penny wise dime foolish imho. had the shop got the motor the r+r would have been on them. good luck and try to keep a cool head and do not irk the shop/shops. all this advice comes from a retired self-employed auto/truck towing repair biz.
The question of selling the car is something that I am frequently back and forth on. Initially when I committed the money I suppose I was thinking that it would be for me to keep. This weekend I have, for obvious reasons, been leaning the other way.
Fixing one of these cars, and investing that much, makes no sense to me unless someone wants to get value from the car. After you have a failure, you will never break even on the car again, so why repair it and spend more? Check out, take the loss on the front end and keep the rest in your bank account.
And you're right, it is a bit premature to go ranting about it. I debated with myself whether or not to post.
Until the stoey has had a chance to play out, and speculation no longer exists, posting is always premature. In the past 15 years I've only had a couple of conflicts with purchasers, both were petty instances. The one guy that ranted about it before I had a chance to stand behind the product, didn't benefit from his actions. He got nothing. The other guy never had to ask for anything. Thats just how I operate.
However, I am really upset with my local shop for not telling me anything about these issues.
Do you have documentation from the drop off that can prove that spome of these things did not exist? This is why we go through hell to induct vehicles into our system, taking a hundred photos and video, and inspecting with a magnifying glass (literally) before we accept a vehicle. If you have proof that these things didn'texist before, then you have a case, but if not you'll just be more pissed off when they counter your claim.
When I had spoken on the phone to the mechanic who told me I could pick up my car, he told me "and we'll go from there" which I thought was suspicious. He was very tight lipped when I went to pick up the car and he actually told me that he did not want to talk about the repair. So from the moment after I paid them, it seemed that no one wanted to talk to me.
Did you inspect the car at pick up? Did anyone allow you to drive the car before settling the tab? If we ever have a walk in customer that picks up a car after a repair, we always make sure they drive the car, and have no questions before we settle up.Why? Because I don't give a damn about the dollar in comparison to the job being completed to their satisfaction.
I was so distracted by my issues with their invoice that I'm afraid I did not really do an inspection. I got it home before I even realized the rubber boots around the license plate had not been replaced. My ride was waiting impatiently, and at that point I had every reason to trust that all was well. And I suppose I was also in a hurry, to hop in and see how my new motor was running
.
Guilty until proven innocent.. Work from that point of view, and you'll seldom be disappointed. Haste makes waste.
However, all of these problems became apparent to me over the course of only 30 miles and 24 hours. So it seems to strain credulity that the shop knew nothing about problems that were immediately apparent. And in hindsight there were hints, both from the mechanic and from the delays, that all may not be well
It sounds like this job was over their heads, and that they got in too deep. I see that at least 10 times a month. They all think "itsonly a motor",until it hands them their *** on a silver platter.
. I don't know anything about who or what could be responsible, (I feel it is actually less likely that the local shop is at fault), but the failure to communicate anything to me about these very obvious issues is testing my faith in their competence and honesty.
Communication is key. Without it you will die. Jud spends his whole day communicating, because we have to. They may have been saying less, so they'd not increase your awareness level, or say too much.
Also, they made it very clear on the phone that they want to be paid more money to make it work correctly, either from me or the guy in L.A. who sold me the motor.
This is why you don't have two parties involved. The finger pointing session occurs and a he said, she said BS experience follows. Its always the other guys fault. Here, if it doesn't work right, its our fault, because there's no other party involved.
The proprietor says to me that a motor installation is simple, there is basically only one connection and that there is no way that his technician could have messed it up.
BULL****!!! If he really thinks this way, then there's the issue. The installer has EVERYTHING to do with the engine living! Was the engine properly started up initially? Did it build oil pressure before starting up? Was the old fuel drained (yes, today's fuel dies in 3 months), were the old codes erased through a system reset, handover? Were the engine builder's recommendations followed to begin with? Did the engine builder even supply any? The list of possibilities that could have been screwed by the installer never ends! Thats why I trust no one to install my engines,and why I always get the whole car. There's the possibility that what lead to the old failure still exists, and will bit this new engine.
He also says the car was running perfectly when he gave it back to me, which just seems unlikely for a number of reasons.
Again, unless you can prove this, its a finger pointing session.
That's why I need advice, because I don't know what the best attitude or disposition I should take with the involved parties to communicate effectively and get this (hopefully) sorted out. I don't even know precisely what their responsibilities are to me, the customer.
Neither do I, because I don't know what the agreements up front were. This is a time when the shop should have bought the engine and then sold the whole job to you. If you buy the engine, the shop has no obligation to do anything to make you happy. They think that bolting it up and making it run is all they were paid to do. They may be right.
It could also be the shops fault for allowing you to make a mistake in the engine purchase, I don't know. I will say that 11.5K that engine didn't have many new parts, the parts bill should have been more than that. It looks like you have gotten what you paid for.
And while I do have a warranty on the motor for 12 months and 12k miles, another 2500$ R&R plus 1000$ for shipping seems a bit ridiculous for a car that just left the shop.
And there's the problem. You bought a piece of paper. Not an engine.
the most expensive Porsche engine that you can buy, is the cheapest one that you can find. It has always been that way, and it always will be.Take that from a guy that sees these mistakes made on a weekly basis.
Well, that's my big issue is that I am totally inexperienced when it comes to this business. I did at least have the sense to take lots of pictures, before and after. I came into this experience with a lot of faith. I bought a low mileage car and within a month as a daily driver it was toast. I managed to convince myself that my experience was relatively uncommon and that I was just unlucky. Now I get it back with the new motor and the second time I turned the key it had a CEL. Jake, this might well be an excellent opportunity for you to say I told you so. That being said, I'm going to clam up about that now. I don't want anyone to get mad at me. I am yet to speak to any of these people face-to-face, and I want to give these guys every opportunity to stand by their work before I go criticizing anyone. I really need all these people to come thru for me after I've now spent 27 thousand dollars.
The motor itself looked good, and the parts list looked legit... then again, I am no expert...
so sorry to hear. hope it works out for the best, soon.
if interested, here's my highly bigoted $0.02 of Porsche $$$/math;
the dollar/math on upside down P-cars may seem terse, rude, and cruel in the beginning....
but, patterns emerge or better still: it all becomes clear:
first; before spending money: consult, consult, consult!! the people here will take considerable time
out of their day to help you avoid making a costly mistake!
the following models should be treated with skepticism ranging from unwavering prejudice to abject disdain;
924, 944/T, 968, 928/S4, 986, 996.
the 968s and 996s are ok, but all of the above cost a good deal more (serious $$$ losses) than they are worth to;
1. keep serviced over the long haul (even including ims maintenance and all going well).
2. do engine replacement or even major service.
to the point where they won't ever pay back more than a minimal fraction of the total invested over a sufficient time sample.
the math becomes less severe if the cars are barely driven. but for Porsches (snotty, hopped up vw's), that's cheating.
bad/(ok; but, you seldom beat the odds): buy them as high risk cars that won't ever be awarded
major repair expenditures *(where you were the day you purchased your 2.7).
after that, you sell or cut them up and lick your wounds.
better: buy them only if you plan to keep them until you are dead.
best: don't buy them all.
what to do instead:
don't buy a 928 S4 but find a widow with a 928GTS who saw what the '90 models sell for on Craigslist.
avoid the 944. defer to a 968 purchase only if you will do a 3.0 turbo upgrade for long time ownership or use a
968 as a kit chassis for a hybrid GM-V8 swap *when that day comes that the engine reaches the money-pit stage.
buy a 987 or 981 instead of a 986.... *install a 991 engine if need to replace engine ever arrives.
buy a 996T/GT2/3 variant, 997 or 991 instead of a 996.... install a 991 engine if there is a failure...
the air-cooled train has left.... don't buy one unless you have plentiful throwaway $$$ , wifey is gone, etc.
currently, the 993 is the least egregious; as it is a gorgeous justifiable route to economic self-homicide.
don't be caught in your massively inflated, air-cooled 911 the day after the next Wall Street panic....
if you still don't believe buying upside down or hyper inflated cars doesn't matter - consider:
the Baby Boomers will soon unload their life-savings, real estate and automobiles to pay for skyrocketing
end-of-life care and prescription drugs...... a decade from now, this event will be known as **the Black Death
in collectable sports cars.
**at least you can haul snow rakes and leaf blowers in a Cayenne when future blizzards strike.
*my upside down Porsche rating scale is currently unavailable; as the air-cooled boom has skewed most of the cars in the near-term.
i'll bring it back as soon as i catch my breath.
Last edited by odurandina; 02-26-2015 at 12:42 AM.
12-14-2014, 11:47 AM
