yemington

Looking for some advice, please.

2000 Boxster S. 20K miles. Recently replaced the IMS bearing as a preventative measure. Some small gold specs in filter prior to change of IMS bearing. Now has the ceramic IMS bearing from LNE. Put Amsoil synthetic oil in after IMS replacement with the plan to change oil after a small number of miles. Less than 100 miles since IMS bearing replacement. Running fine. No overheating. No oil pressure warnings. No funny sounds or vibrations.

Drained the Amsoil to put in Joe Gibbs today. Very little debris on the magnetic oil pan plug. But, when I tore down the filter I found a large amount of non-ferrous metal shavings in the filter. Didn't put in the Joe Gibbs...Buttoned the car up and pushed it off the lift because I don't want to run it without figuring out what may have happened. Pictures attached. Thoughts? IMS bearing failure? Lifter? Sure hope this isn't the rebuild I was trying to avoid...

LexVan

PM Jake Raby from Flat 6 Innovations.

Macster

If they're thick they didn't go through the oil pump gears (or likely the scavenge pumps). Since the engine was just opened up and the IMSB replaced I'm thinking something from when the engine was built was dislodged. The metal looks like cutting swarf not wear debris.

Now I'm not familiar with the IMSB swap but pulling the old bearing out and pushing the new bearing in it is possible some aluminum got scraped from the bearing bore and that metal is what you see.

Up to you what you do next, but if it were my engine I'd be inclined to put in some proper oil and a new filter and be sure the filter housing is clean and start and run the engine a bit. Let it idle until the engine is nearly warmed up. Then drop the housing and check the filter and oil for any more debris. What you find determines what you do next.

Or you can follow LexVan's suggest and PM Jake Raby.

BTW, I do not like to leave an engine empty of oil. Someone forgets and starts the engine the engine can be toast before one realizes what he's hearing and shuts the engine off.

Flat6 Innovations

My question:

Why did you retrofit an engine that already had gold colored debris in the oil? By that time you weren't "preventing" anything, you were already experiencing a failure.

Its a must to qualify these engines prior to an IMSR process. If the engine doesn't qualify, then it should not be retrofitted. See this page for details:http://imsretrofit.com/bearing-already-failing/

yemington

Jake, Thanks for your email. My reply also below for folks that may see this thread in future:

The original bearing was not in bad shape. Still turns freely and quietly. When I drained the oil to do the bearing there were some gold flecks in the filter upon close inspection but only on very close examination. No debris in the pan. I still have the filter element and the original bearing. There was no indication of failure at the previous oil change (~2000 miles). None. So, in my mind this was preventative and met the requirements. BTW, first flush was before it was off the lift--not BR--30W.

At this point I'm going to pull the pan again and see if there is any debris. I also will run several changes of oil and filters through it while it is on the lift to clean it out. At this point I figure I'm playing with house money...any miles I get out of it are on the house. There isn't any chance of putting a new motor in it or rebuilding it. Other priorities will get the budget including my 1970 2.4L racecar. Hate to part out the Boxster because there isn't a nicer one. But, I'm angry enough to crush it.

Damn shame Porsche dropped the ball on this motor.

Flat6 Innovations

I have documented 27 modes of M96/97 engine failure, 26 of them are not replated to the IMSB but over half of them generate debris in the oil as a symptom of engine failure.

Then the engine was in the process of failing. Period. Any debris thats gold or copper colored that in a fleck is coming from rod and main bearings. There is no other potential source of this material within the engine in the shape of a fleck.

>
Then the issue occurred in 2K miles. This is proof that simple oil changes and monitoring that oil is not enough to prevent M96/97 engine failures. We've known that for a decade.

With nothing in the pan it means that the debris was light enough to be suspended in the oil, forced through the oil pump and then delievered to the filter.

My guess is your factory oil filter bypass is failing and allowed that debris to be delivered to the rod and main bearings, this could have been the primary failure that lead to the copper flecks, too. We are seeing them fail like crazy and its a horrible design.

But if it had debris in the oil that was known before retrofit, it should have been disqualified. The primary failure should have been addressed before applying any sort of IMS intervention.

Most oils are designed to keep engines clean, and are very poor when it comes to containing debris suspended in them so it can be purged. BR is exceptional at debris removal.

I understand. These things happen too much, everyday. Today we had a customer drive 9 hours to have his IMSR (IMS Solution) carried out here. The car was disqualified due to debris in the oil and filter, as well as camshaft deviations and other things that do not meet our criteria. Its sda, but he had us service it and he will drive 9 hours back home without a retrofit and he did not choose to address the problem at hand. This is much better than retrofitting an engine that has known issues and will fail.

Like your car, the one I just disqualified had zero symptoms. Here everything is guilty until proven innocent.

Further, its a sjhame the the vast majority of shops did not learn these engines and their idiosynrasies, that alone would have saved engines.

VirginiaF1

Wow.. as a happy current 944'er but prospective 986/996/987/C7S graduate, this engine's well-documented failure history fascinates.
( IMS; RMS; Cylinder fissure issues)
And yet, Some owners have gone nearly 200k miles with nary a failure.

While most of the 996 IMS pollsters (90+%) here indicated no failures to date, the prospect of buying a pre-owned M96/97.1 engined car chills the impulse.
https://rennlist.com/forums/11375500-post281.html

Have I read correctly that only the latest 997.2's 9a1 DFI engine dispenses with IMS?
As such, can the poor resale value on older Boxsters and 996's stem from the word ( and last year's Porsche lawsuit/settlement) having finally gotten out?


PS: Your website is great!
Although as you probably already know, the "M96 Reliability" page is currently blank.
Cheers.. mikey

Flat6 Innovations

Yes, however that also offers compromises. Our 4.5 years of development with the 9a1 engine has proven this.

The cars haven't dropped in value any more than other European sports cars of the same era. Look at the percentages of depreciation for BMWs and Mercedes and you'll see this clearly. As for Porsche, well the same drops in value are present with the Turbo and even the Cayenne models. I see Cayenne's today that cost more than a 911 new, selling for less than that same 911 today, with equal miles.

The engine issues really have not hurt these cars and their value, but they have hurt the following that has always trusted the brand.

Yes, I removed that content. I need to remove the page, too.

yemington

After I got over the shock of the metal in the filter I made a plan:
1) drop the pan and check it
2) Operation Metamucil: do a couple of quick (5 minutes;around the block) oil changes to flush the garbage out as much as possible
3) Put in Joe Gibbs DT40
4) Put in an oil pressure sensor and gauge
5) watch the oil pressure gauge for signs of the apocalypse.

Step 1 complete. Pictures attached. Good news: very little in the way of debris. A piece of the snap ring from the original IMS bearing removal. Looks like it didn't make it through the screen on the oil intake. Indeed, looks like it may have just dropped into the pan. The big chunk is a piece of silicone/gasket. Some fine ferrous material piled up by the corner of the plastic slosh-gaurd. All in all not the yard-sale I had feared. BTW, got the filter out that I saved from the IMS bearing change. Those gold flecks were ferrous and not gold after the oil came off. As mentioned before the old IMS bearing was in one piece when removed and didn't show any signs of having lost material.

Thanks for the advice and ideas. I'll update this again after the oil pressure sensor/gauge are in.

LexVan

Correction. You want Joe Gibbs Driven DT40 5W40.

Flat6 Innovations

I'd continue to flush and use a flush oil for the purpose, like Gibbes BR. I'd then employ a spin on filter adaptor (to remove the factory bypass and ensure all oil is 100% filtered) and a mag drain plug, with a filter mag slapped on the side of the filter. I'd then change that oil 3-4 more times in the next 150 miles, pulling the sump everytime.

Salvation is a difficult thing once the engine has ANY debris of ANY type.

yemington

Jake,
Thanks for your continued concern and attention. I will get the spin-on filter adaptor after I've had a chance to research the filtration and flow specs of the original filter. Can you point me to anything? I'm concerned about being able to find a spin-on filter with same specs as cartridge.

Already had a magnetic drain plug. Will get the filter mag with spin on.

I talked to Lake Speed, Jr. at Joe Gibbs. He says the BR is designed to reduce the amount of wear metals produced at break-in; kind of a chemical break in. No special sauce to suspend metal/debris. I think I'll go with the $3/quart 10w30 dino from Autozone as flush / throw-away. I'll definitely be putting DT40 in once the flush complete. (Lake is fantastic, BTW. I am 100% sold on BR and Joe Gibbs oil for the 2.4L race motor I'm building.)

I would have felt worse if I didn't do the IMS refit correctly--seems like George and Charles think I didn't cause my current situation. No idea how the piece of IMS retaining ring eluded me to this point. Luckily it didn't seem to have traveled into the oil system.

Praying for salvation. Always.

yemington

I stand corrected. thx.

LexVan

Look at L&N Engineering's. Charles and Jake do a ton of collaboration.

yemington

Right. I am sure they did the research but would like to see the specs. I am leary of using a filter that may have different flow and/or filtration characteristics than factory spec. Just wanted to make sure that the WIX 51042 has the same specs as the cartridge.