Are boxters really all that?
08-21-2012, 09:11 PM
#46
I got the quote from PDS, going through CarChex as a broker. If you are in the market for a warranty, I would definitely do more research and comparison shopping than I have done.
Generally speaking, the great majority oif people lose money on extended warranties, but that is true of all types of "insurance". (Strictly speaking, extended warranties are a service contract, not insurance). However, for many, the peace of mind is worth the price. It is an individual decision.
Actually this evening, we decided to buy that Boxster (we were waiting on the fully service records, whcih show that the car has been trouble free thus far, and has had all the proper maintenance at good intervals).
My personal plan is to over-maintain the car, replace the IMS regularly with the LN unit etc. The car has 22 months CPO too, and after that I will just keep maintaining it. I think it will work out well
It is a 550 anniversary car...
Generally speaking, the great majority oif people lose money on extended warranties, but that is true of all types of "insurance". (Strictly speaking, extended warranties are a service contract, not insurance). However, for many, the peace of mind is worth the price. It is an individual decision.
Actually this evening, we decided to buy that Boxster (we were waiting on the fully service records, whcih show that the car has been trouble free thus far, and has had all the proper maintenance at good intervals).
My personal plan is to over-maintain the car, replace the IMS regularly with the LN unit etc. The car has 22 months CPO too, and after that I will just keep maintaining it. I think it will work out well
It is a 550 anniversary car...
08-21-2012, 10:02 PM
#47
The comparison to a Ferrari 360 made me laugh. I am not rich enough to move in those circles!
Thanks Laguna, yes, it does have the Cocoa interior, which to my eye is a nice color combo with the GT silver. We will be picking the car up on Saturday.
Your question of which from 1997 to 2008 is a tough one, as the cars obviously improved quite a bit, but of course, the prices will be very different in proportion. In terms of fit and finish quality I noticed a big difference between a low mile '97 I rode in, and the 2004 I'm buying. And I think the later you go, the better it gets. Porsche has made a lot of effort in the quality area over the past decade which is reflected in their climb to near the top in both the J.D. Power IQS and 3-year dependability study.
Having said that, the biggest quality criticism levelled at the earlier cars seems to be the interior plastics etc. They are still fundamentally good cars. The one very-specific thing to watch on the earlier cars (I think pre-2000) is Porsche went through a spate of blocks that were sleeved, where the the sleeve subsequently slipped in some cases. Higher mileage earlier cars will have either had this taken care of, or were not one of the problem ones. IF you look at a low-mileage early car though, it could be one of these.
Generally speaking, the consistent advice with Porsches is to buy a good condition example with a complete service history. Once you have fixed your budget, see how new you can go and still meet those criteria. I'd rather buy a very well kept and documented 2000 than a 2004 (for example) with unknown history and looking rough around the edges.
Some thoughts you may want to keep in mind that I considered:
1) Pre-2006 cars have a (relatively) easily retrofitted IMS design. The later cars (and this may include some late 2005s) require splitting the case for IMS replacement (if you want to go the route of periodically changing it). As I said before, the later design (M97) was likely the best and least likely to fail, but some still can.
2) The 987 is a significant style change over the 986. I like the 986 well-enough, but all things equal, I think the 987 looks better and had more defined curves (and I think the 981 trumps them both! That's progress!)
3) At the same time, the interior design changed even more drastically. 2005+ cars have (IMO) great looking interiors, even in basic specification. The 986 interiors could look great when optioned up (leather etc.) but did look spartan (dare we say cheap-ish) in base trim...
4) Glass rear windows appeared in 2003. A carefully-kept plastic window can still be nice, and it is larger to boot. However, if you are going to drive in conditions where you need it to defrost, then it is not ideal (many people substitute a hard top at these times).
5) A good PPI from a knowledgable, independent expert is always a worthwhile investment.
Thanks Laguna, yes, it does have the Cocoa interior, which to my eye is a nice color combo with the GT silver. We will be picking the car up on Saturday.
Your question of which from 1997 to 2008 is a tough one, as the cars obviously improved quite a bit, but of course, the prices will be very different in proportion. In terms of fit and finish quality I noticed a big difference between a low mile '97 I rode in, and the 2004 I'm buying. And I think the later you go, the better it gets. Porsche has made a lot of effort in the quality area over the past decade which is reflected in their climb to near the top in both the J.D. Power IQS and 3-year dependability study.
Having said that, the biggest quality criticism levelled at the earlier cars seems to be the interior plastics etc. They are still fundamentally good cars. The one very-specific thing to watch on the earlier cars (I think pre-2000) is Porsche went through a spate of blocks that were sleeved, where the the sleeve subsequently slipped in some cases. Higher mileage earlier cars will have either had this taken care of, or were not one of the problem ones. IF you look at a low-mileage early car though, it could be one of these.
Generally speaking, the consistent advice with Porsches is to buy a good condition example with a complete service history. Once you have fixed your budget, see how new you can go and still meet those criteria. I'd rather buy a very well kept and documented 2000 than a 2004 (for example) with unknown history and looking rough around the edges.
Some thoughts you may want to keep in mind that I considered:
1) Pre-2006 cars have a (relatively) easily retrofitted IMS design. The later cars (and this may include some late 2005s) require splitting the case for IMS replacement (if you want to go the route of periodically changing it). As I said before, the later design (M97) was likely the best and least likely to fail, but some still can.
2) The 987 is a significant style change over the 986. I like the 986 well-enough, but all things equal, I think the 987 looks better and had more defined curves (and I think the 981 trumps them both! That's progress!)
3) At the same time, the interior design changed even more drastically. 2005+ cars have (IMO) great looking interiors, even in basic specification. The 986 interiors could look great when optioned up (leather etc.) but did look spartan (dare we say cheap-ish) in base trim...
4) Glass rear windows appeared in 2003. A carefully-kept plastic window can still be nice, and it is larger to boot. However, if you are going to drive in conditions where you need it to defrost, then it is not ideal (many people substitute a hard top at these times).
5) A good PPI from a knowledgable, independent expert is always a worthwhile investment.
When put next to this:
Of course, it's all subjective. I prefer the smoothness of the 986 to the interrupted lines of the 987. But hey, if you're able to pay that much attention to it, you just need more right pedal anyway
08-21-2012, 11:06 PM
#49
Rest In Peace Jaak
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Yes ... I had it done when the engine was being rebuilt. I bought it with a motor where the PO overfilled the crank with 4 extra litres of oil ...
To me it gives it a bit more umpf when the pedal is pressed ....
The sound is nice along with the NHP exhaust. http://www.maxspeed-motorsports.com/986nhpmuffler.html... especially in underpasses etc.
To me it gives it a bit more umpf when the pedal is pressed ....
The sound is nice along with the NHP exhaust. http://www.maxspeed-motorsports.com/986nhpmuffler.html... especially in underpasses etc.
08-21-2012, 11:06 PM
#50
Guys, the 360 and Boxster are actually somewhat valid comparisons believe it or not.
I bought my 360 for less than a new 987 Base Boxster or Cayman! Both are mid engined. Both have similar handling dynamics.
The car is wider with the suspension firmer and holds the turns better than the Boxster in the 95% of driving. At the "limit" it tends to be squirrely and oversteer.. but as with any mid engine when it lets go, you don't have that polar moment of inertia to prevent oversteer like (for example) my 928. Steering feel and everything else if f$#%ing amazing. And yes the title was is the boxster the greatest thing.
I like the boxster (my 986) for it's ride. It truly dances around corners. It's underpowered but torque is sufficient under 4k RPM for tooling around town. The key with the car is the braking that is sufficient to good, and the handling that keeps it on the road while other cars are falling away. I've only broken the rear tires twice.. on wet roads.
The only gripe is the components are cheap plastic crap! The IMS is what it is although quite a few cars out there have 100k miles plus. I've replaced the clutch hose/pipe, both window regulators, both door locks, my water pump, interior cup holders, ignition switch.. for a car with 67k miles on it. My Ferrari has 52 and you don't see the types of failures that you do on the Boxster because of the component quality. Interior is leather wrapped and if it looks like a hunk of aluminum.. it is, vs porsche using coated plastic. You can't have no a compromises car affordably. Plastics are where this comes into play. The Boxster is nice and I'm always surprised at the reliability given the components.. but I'm not impressed at the "new porsche way". Don't get me wrong.. I like my Boxster.. I just don't think it's all that. ;-)
And no the 360 is not a high end exotic... that's what the 599 is for. ;-)
I bought my 360 for less than a new 987 Base Boxster or Cayman! Both are mid engined. Both have similar handling dynamics.
The car is wider with the suspension firmer and holds the turns better than the Boxster in the 95% of driving. At the "limit" it tends to be squirrely and oversteer.. but as with any mid engine when it lets go, you don't have that polar moment of inertia to prevent oversteer like (for example) my 928. Steering feel and everything else if f$#%ing amazing. And yes the title was is the boxster the greatest thing.
I like the boxster (my 986) for it's ride. It truly dances around corners. It's underpowered but torque is sufficient under 4k RPM for tooling around town. The key with the car is the braking that is sufficient to good, and the handling that keeps it on the road while other cars are falling away. I've only broken the rear tires twice.. on wet roads.
The only gripe is the components are cheap plastic crap! The IMS is what it is although quite a few cars out there have 100k miles plus. I've replaced the clutch hose/pipe, both window regulators, both door locks, my water pump, interior cup holders, ignition switch.. for a car with 67k miles on it. My Ferrari has 52 and you don't see the types of failures that you do on the Boxster because of the component quality. Interior is leather wrapped and if it looks like a hunk of aluminum.. it is, vs porsche using coated plastic. You can't have no a compromises car affordably. Plastics are where this comes into play. The Boxster is nice and I'm always surprised at the reliability given the components.. but I'm not impressed at the "new porsche way". Don't get me wrong.. I like my Boxster.. I just don't think it's all that. ;-)
And no the 360 is not a high end exotic... that's what the 599 is for. ;-)
08-21-2012, 11:33 PM
#51
I have close to zero knowledge about Ferrari build quality and expected lifespan. I've read the 360's have fantastic interiors with great materials but what about the drivetrain and suspension? How do they hold up and how often do they require service?
I think one of the reasons that a Boxster is "all that" is because it's a car that performs at or near exotic levels and has looks to match but is relatively attainable and usable on a daily basis. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too!
I think one of the reasons that a Boxster is "all that" is because it's a car that performs at or near exotic levels and has looks to match but is relatively attainable and usable on a daily basis. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too!
08-21-2012, 11:43 PM
#52
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You really found a 360 for less than $50K?? That is quite a heavily depreciated price for a desirable exotic, well below the vast majority of the current market.
Guys like me can't afford a Modena anyway. In 2000, a new Modena was ~$150K, a Boxster ~$40K... I would expect a few differences... That said, I think the Boxster has come a long way in the past decade and the materials are generally much nicer. Anyway, your original post speaks for itself and I get what you are saying. The Modena is a a beautiful car and I found its proportions even more pleasing than the 430.
Matmanx1, the car is at a Porsche dealer, but in the Toronto area, not Georgia, so don't worry!!
Interesting comments about the interiors too! Tastes certainly can vary!
Guys like me can't afford a Modena anyway. In 2000, a new Modena was ~$150K, a Boxster ~$40K... I would expect a few differences... That said, I think the Boxster has come a long way in the past decade and the materials are generally much nicer. Anyway, your original post speaks for itself and I get what you are saying. The Modena is a a beautiful car and I found its proportions even more pleasing than the 430.
Matmanx1, the car is at a Porsche dealer, but in the Toronto area, not Georgia, so don't worry!!
Interesting comments about the interiors too! Tastes certainly can vary!
08-22-2012, 01:50 AM
#53
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I just have to say, "I must be a mother, because, I love the cocoa interior!" I love black interiors as well. 500...I am going to look for a car like yours! I think I saw one for sale in San Francisco. Thanks for all of your great information! Mosport?
This has been a great thread...thanks to all!
This has been a great thread...thanks to all!
08-22-2012, 09:36 AM
#54
I have close to zero knowledge about Ferrari build quality and expected lifespan. I've read the 360's have fantastic interiors with great materials but what about the drivetrain and suspension? How do they hold up and how often do they require service?
I think one of the reasons that a Boxster is "all that" is because it's a car that performs at or near exotic levels and has looks to match but is relatively attainable and usable on a daily basis. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too!
I think one of the reasons that a Boxster is "all that" is because it's a car that performs at or near exotic levels and has looks to match but is relatively attainable and usable on a daily basis. Sort of like having your cake and eating it too!
And my prior porsches being so fun to work on prepared me well for the FCar that is a piece of cake to work on by comparison. I was Porsche guy coming to the FCar. From the 360 onward they've improved their build quality significantly. The days of the cheap POS FIAT are gone. Once a year oil change (about 50 bucks more spensive than a Boxster, belt change every 3-5 years $2500 (more spensive than Boxster).
Shocks and drivetrain.. no problems. Boge Shocks variable stiffness, tranny shifts great. Different feel with the gated shifter (mines a stick). Most engine components are Bosch and identical to Mercedes/Porsche.. e.g. coils and axles same as 911.
I like the Boxster... my only gripe is the components that used to be cast aluminum and lasted 100k are now plastic. It's lighter, but not as durable.
And yes... I enjoy eating my cake too.
08-22-2012, 09:47 AM
#55
Curt, I'm surprised to read you got the car for less than a new base 987. Were there any factors about it that hurt its value? A quick search on Autotrader brings up a modified spider for $60k, a black coupe for $72k, and then the prices just go up.
I'm not going argue that that Ferrari isn't better at being a luxurious sports car. It clearly ought to be. But how much would you have to spend on it driving 15k miles a year? That's how much I've put on my 986 since buying it, and my only costs have been a single oil change (with another, and an accessory belt replacement being done this week or next), and I am able to do all of this myself with my limited mechanical skills. So, aside from a new top that needed replacing more from me being stupid than it just wearing out, I've put less than $200 in the car in 14 months and 17k miles. The only thing that's broken is whatever device makes the clicking noise when you enable the turn indicator. This thing was annoying anyway and I'm not going to bother fixing it.
All this isn't to say the Ferrari isn't worth it (heck, I don't even know what they cost to maintain). But the simple fact of the matter is that I and many others don't have the money to even get our foot in the door, much less keep the car on the road. The factor you're forgetting is that the Boxster is extremely attainable compared to the 360, and for many of us this is a make-or-break issue forced upon us. If I had the money, you bet I'd spend it on a better car, but right now the 986 is what I can swing and, after growing up in FWD economy cars, I couldn't ask it to do any better for the price I paid.
I'm not going argue that that Ferrari isn't better at being a luxurious sports car. It clearly ought to be. But how much would you have to spend on it driving 15k miles a year? That's how much I've put on my 986 since buying it, and my only costs have been a single oil change (with another, and an accessory belt replacement being done this week or next), and I am able to do all of this myself with my limited mechanical skills. So, aside from a new top that needed replacing more from me being stupid than it just wearing out, I've put less than $200 in the car in 14 months and 17k miles. The only thing that's broken is whatever device makes the clicking noise when you enable the turn indicator. This thing was annoying anyway and I'm not going to bother fixing it.
All this isn't to say the Ferrari isn't worth it (heck, I don't even know what they cost to maintain). But the simple fact of the matter is that I and many others don't have the money to even get our foot in the door, much less keep the car on the road. The factor you're forgetting is that the Boxster is extremely attainable compared to the 360, and for many of us this is a make-or-break issue forced upon us. If I had the money, you bet I'd spend it on a better car, but right now the 986 is what I can swing and, after growing up in FWD economy cars, I couldn't ask it to do any better for the price I paid.
08-22-2012, 01:23 PM
#56
Oh guys I apologise if I made it sound at all like I was boasting in any way.. I've been very fortunate in life to be able to even afford the car and lucky in spending 1.5 years searching for the car. Bought it in 2010 and it's been great so far.
The Boxster is a great car. For the money it's ALOT better than any of the competition. For $8-10k depending on miles and condition the Boxster is a fantastic car to own. My only reason for posting is that for what it is it's a nice car. But there are other things out there that are so good they embody the stuff dreams are made of. I NEVER thought I'd have a 360 in my garage. But I do. Life changes and it gives you opportunities to go onward and upward. When it does go with it... but be warned, the bar goes upward as well.
The Boxster is a great car. For the money it's ALOT better than any of the competition. For $8-10k depending on miles and condition the Boxster is a fantastic car to own. My only reason for posting is that for what it is it's a nice car. But there are other things out there that are so good they embody the stuff dreams are made of. I NEVER thought I'd have a 360 in my garage. But I do. Life changes and it gives you opportunities to go onward and upward. When it does go with it... but be warned, the bar goes upward as well.
08-22-2012, 01:28 PM
#57
Boxsters are great cars for the price. The past does not equal the future. I'm sure life will present you the opportunity to have any car you want. The Boxster is great training for a mid-engined super car.
08-22-2012, 02:10 PM
#58
I spend time on the 928 forums. And there are guys there that state on and on how a $3000 1983 928S is the best car ever made, yaddity yaddity. They'd rather have that than a new Aston DB9, etc. etc. It's this that my post was also directed at. There are better things out there. And that's OK.
Boxsters are great cars for the price. The past does not equal the future. I'm sure life will present you the opportunity to have any car you want. The Boxster is great training for a mid-engined super car.
Boxsters are great cars for the price. The past does not equal the future. I'm sure life will present you the opportunity to have any car you want. The Boxster is great training for a mid-engined super car.
08-22-2012, 02:40 PM
#59
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Curt...I didn't get the impression that your were boasting! I like your statement about not letting opportunities pass you by, just go with it. It's when you don't go with it when we have regrets!
Some guys talk about Boxsters are great "for the money". What I'm looking for is "are they great, or are they a cheap entry Porsche". Many have stated that they love the car and feel that it is a great car. My main concern is it's durability? Porsche durability? With my '87 Carrera coupe and mt '94 964 coupe, I feel I can drive them hard, put them away and take them out again, at will, without worrying as much about having to fix or adjust something every time I do. I hope I'm not beating this to death...I have the luxury of time right now until I sell the 964...some guys say that the $10k Boxsters are a great car for the money...I would say, yes they are, while they are running...it's when you start dumping money into them and now you are at $15k plus when you start thinking...maybe I should have spent a little more for a newer one or something else all together..? I know I loved the heck out of the '04 base that I drove for a few days...if It would run great for many many miles, consistently, with out a lot of fuss, then I'm in! I know there are no guarantees, but I'm just trying to get a good feel from those in the know! That would be you folks! Thanks again...very interesting and entertaining stuff! BTW...did anyone go to Monterey for the shows, racing, or auctions last week? Yes, I'm hijacking my own thread! Sorry to self! LOL! Have a great day!
Some guys talk about Boxsters are great "for the money". What I'm looking for is "are they great, or are they a cheap entry Porsche". Many have stated that they love the car and feel that it is a great car. My main concern is it's durability? Porsche durability? With my '87 Carrera coupe and mt '94 964 coupe, I feel I can drive them hard, put them away and take them out again, at will, without worrying as much about having to fix or adjust something every time I do. I hope I'm not beating this to death...I have the luxury of time right now until I sell the 964...some guys say that the $10k Boxsters are a great car for the money...I would say, yes they are, while they are running...it's when you start dumping money into them and now you are at $15k plus when you start thinking...maybe I should have spent a little more for a newer one or something else all together..? I know I loved the heck out of the '04 base that I drove for a few days...if It would run great for many many miles, consistently, with out a lot of fuss, then I'm in! I know there are no guarantees, but I'm just trying to get a good feel from those in the know! That would be you folks! Thanks again...very interesting and entertaining stuff! BTW...did anyone go to Monterey for the shows, racing, or auctions last week? Yes, I'm hijacking my own thread! Sorry to self! LOL! Have a great day!
08-22-2012, 02:49 PM
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ep3...I'm a little confused...i just read your post...isn't a Boxster a Cayman convertible? I, too, love the Cayman! I am also a big fan of the 550 Spyder...which is probably what draws me to the Boxster! Cheers!