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Old 05-04-2007, 10:07 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by insite
try to autocross an F430 (extreme example). you will probably get beat by far lesser cars. now go to the race track. the F430 will make the same lesser cars look stupid.
I think that this is the concept that most of us are going after here....

I remember about 7 or 8 years ago that there was a guy who had a REALLY nice Lamborghini Diablo. He decided to come down and autox with PCA at Qualcom (then Jack Murphy) Stadium here in San Diego (I think he came with a Pcar owner, who told him to bring the Lambo).

Suffice it to say, everyone with even a stock 914 (myself included) thrashed the snot out of that poor car. I'm sure something can be said for driver skill, but we're talking HUGE margins of victory over his Diablo.

Now, do you think he went home all upset thinking he was driving an inferior car... I think not.

Autocross is nice and all, but real race tracks give a FAR better impression of just where the car ranks in the pecking order. In that respect, I don't think the Solstice would find itself even sniffing the exhaust of the 986S, or the standard 986 for that matter.

AutoX is AutoX, real track is real world.


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Old 05-05-2007, 07:47 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by SDDave
Autocross is nice and all, but real race tracks give a FAR better impression of just where the car ranks in the pecking order.

Let's hope not, as the Boxster and Box-S are comprehensively whipped on-track by just about everything for sale in this country over thirty grand that doesn't say "Lexus" or "GMC" on the back. Hell, EVO managed to get a Maserati Quattroporte around their test track ahead of a 987S.

There's nothing like the frustration of driving the literal cords off the
Hoosiers of a 986S at Putnam Park only to find that you are lapping nearly three seconds off stock Z06es.

The beauty of the 986 and 987 lie in the superb quality of the tactile driving experience. While the kid ahead of me at Mid-Ohio in his tuned-up Evo is simply braking hard, cranking the wheel, then mashing the throttle and letting the AWD sort him out of the turn, I'm making fingertip corrections and dancing right on what Ross Bentley calls the wrong side of the limit, reveling in everything from the pebbles you feel in the steering wheel to the minute changes in engine tone that warn you of impending slip. Trouble is, the Evo's driving away.
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Old 05-06-2007, 04:01 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Let's hope not, as the Boxster and Box-S are comprehensively whipped on-track by just about everything for sale in this country over thirty grand that doesn't say "Lexus" or "GMC" on the back. Hell, EVO managed to get a Maserati Quattroporte around their test track ahead of a 987S.
I agree... it would be COMPLETELY sad if the Boxster couldn't go to Laguna Seca (just throwing a track out there) and beat the

Acura TL
Audi A6
BMW 330i
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire (base and SRT6)
Infiniti G35 Sedan
Mini Cooper Werks Edition
Nissan 350Z
or
Volkswagen Passat
(just off the top of my head )

ALL of which retail BASE at over $30k w/ no options, here in the good ol' USA.

But you know, something tells me that this small sampling of $30K-plus cars would have a tough time keeping up with the Boxster (much less the S) lap after lap after lap on a real racing circuit.

I could be wrong though.... that Mini's CRAZY light!!!


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Old 05-06-2007, 10:17 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Pzkw993
The beauty of the 986 and 987 lie in the superb quality of the tactile driving experience. While the kid ahead of me at Mid-Ohio in his tuned-up Evo is simply braking hard, cranking the wheel, then mashing the throttle and letting the AWD sort him out of the turn, I'm making fingertip corrections and dancing right on what Ross Bentley calls the wrong side of the limit, reveling in everything from the pebbles you feel in the steering wheel to the minute changes in engine tone that warn you of impending slip. Trouble is, the Evo's driving away.
I really like this comment, sounds like it came out of Porsche Dgest except the driving away part

Good one, Pzkw
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Old 05-06-2007, 01:14 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by SDDave
I agree... it would be COMPLETELY sad if the Boxster couldn't go to Laguna Seca (just throwing a track out there) and beat the

Acura TL
Audi A6
BMW 330i
BMW Z4
Chrysler Crossfire (base and SRT6)
Infiniti G35 Sedan
Mini Cooper Werks Edition
Nissan 350Z
or
Volkswagen Passat
(just off the top of my head )

ALL of which retail BASE at over $30k w/ no options, here in the good ol' USA.

But you know, something tells me that this small sampling of $30K-plus cars would have a tough time keeping up with the Boxster (much less the S) lap after lap after lap on a real racing circuit.

I could be wrong though.... that Mini's CRAZY light!!!


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You should have been more careful in your ironic selection of cars. Of the cars you listed, the Z4 3.0si, Crossfire SRT6, new-generation G35, and 350Z will all trounce a Boxster 2.7 around many road courses with equal drivers. They all have just as much tire, if not more, and considerably more power. I'd also be really careful about laughing at the Cooper JCW.

But as long as we are listing cars, here's a brief selection of $30,000 and up cars that will beat a Boxster 2.7 (and often a 3.2) around, say, Putnam Park:

* Every Corvette since the LT1 C4
* Every Evolution and STi variant
* M[356 and Roadster]
* RS[46] and sometimes V8 S4 depending on track
* Cadillac CTS-V

Heck, even that crummy Honda S2000 will smack a Boxster 2.7 around nearly any track you care to name.

The intent of this is not to bash the Boxster. The point is that once you start rapping about track time, you pretty quickly realize that nobody in this country buys a Porsche to get around a track quickly unless they are racing in the ALMS. You buy a Porsche because you love Porsches. Before I chose the 986 Anniversary to be my third Porsche, I looked at everything from that aforementioned Z4 3.0si to the Z06 - but I still wanted a Porsche.

Oh yeah - it's possible to go faster than a Boxster really cheap. Anybody here ever turned a 1:48 around Mid-Ohio in a stock Boxster? It's not possible. Even in a 986S, it requires total commitment and a willingness to drive the car so hard that hitting the wall is more a probability than a possibility. It's also a pretty standard qualifying lap time for Spec Neon, Spec Miata, and Spec Focus.
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Old 05-06-2007, 02:30 PM
  #36  
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I'll just chime in here and say, yet again, that I WISH PORSCHE WOULD PUT 911 MOTORS IN THE BOXSTERS / CAYMANS!!! Lord knows the chassis can handle the power...
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Old 05-06-2007, 02:52 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Pzkw993
But as long as we are listing cars, here's a brief selection of $30,000 and up cars that will beat a Boxster 2.7 around, say, Putnam Park:

* Every Corvette since the LT1 C4
* Every Evolution and STi variant
* M[356 and Roadster]
* RS[46] and sometimes V8 S4 depending on track
* Cadillac CTS-V
...Spec Neon, Spec Miata, and Spec Focus.
There we go.... the "We don't want the Boxster to win" AutoMag comparison test and its affect on the mind of its readers.

I believe this falls under my previously-mentioned marketing plan of "Hey look at us- Our best, most expensive, fastest car beats their cheapest, slowest car."

I get so sick of people thinking that they can just up the ante on one side of the equation, not allow the same escalation on the other side, and then hold up the enhanced model as the hands-down 'better car' for beating the handicapped car.

Alright, bridge-keeper, I'll play your game...

Let's put your Ubercars (Neons and Miatas were mentioned in that breath for you, too, right? ) up against just one of the tuned Boxsters. After all, your M-version BMWs, Lancer Evos, and S-model Audis are tuner cars developed in-house...

How does your list fare against a Ruf 3400S? We'll leave Gemballa, 9ff, et al out of the equation, because they are more bolt-on companies, versus Ruf, who is almost a manufacturer unto itself. Is your Spec Focus going to mop the track with the Ruf?

Originally Posted by First986NJ
I just get cranked up when they gear the thing down, make sure the 0-60 is like 0.1 quicker than a base 987, then start comparing it to a Boxster.
That's about what all those cars amount to; a company scrapes and outspends to build a car that moves a hair past the Boxster... or you take Spec cars designed for racing... and then they try and get everyone on the bandwagon. Obviously you can't fault them, as we've seen here that it does work on some people!!

But take the base model of any of the above-mentioned cars.... find the difference between that base model and their upgraded car (ie, $11K between the Z4 and M Roadster, $10K between the 335 and M3, $16K between the Crossfire and the SRT6, $10K between Solstices, etc)... and give that amount to a base 986 owner.

Are you telling me that a base 986 owner, with $10-16 grand in hand, couldn't build a MUCH faster car with simple aftermarket parts?

Or I guess the better question is: At what point do you give Porsche its due?


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Old 05-06-2007, 03:23 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by blinkwatt
The Solstice is a Pontiac and that's it. The Boxster is a Porsche and as long as you maintain your Porsche it will always hold some value look at 914s,928s & 944s.
I bought my 944 for a thousand dollars...didn't they retail for something over $30k back in '85?

I personally like the Solstice/Sky lines of cars, I think they are great looking and would love to take one for a drive. Before I found my p-car down the street I was seriously considering getting a Solstice.

Now that the GXP is out, I want one even more

IIRC it's a 260HP car thats under 3000 pounds, so it's going to be pretty quick. It's no GT3, but it should give a Boxster a run for its money.

I don't like how some of you are insulting these cars though, "Its just an American car". If that's how you treat things from your own country, we'd appreciate you more in the sandbox.

These Pontiacs and Saturns, despite their brand name, will hold value for a considerable time. In 15 years I wouldn't be surprised at all if a Solstice is selling for more than any of your Boxsters. This is because of the limited production runs of these cars. Boxsters have been made for over 10 years now, and if you look around my town it seems everyone has one. However, in the 2 or so years the GM roadsters have been out I've seen maybe 3 of them. They certainly won't hold value like an only-500-produced F-car but will still do better than your P-car.

Sorry.

Of course, Solstice people can't say they drive a Porsche.
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Old 05-06-2007, 04:59 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by SDDave
I believe this falls under my previously-mentioned marketing plan of "Hey look at us- Our best, most expensive, fastest car beats their cheapest, slowest car."
...and you can see that mindset among every 997GT3 owner who mentions the nearly-twice-as-expensive F430

Let's put your Ubercars (Neons and Miatas were mentioned in that breath for you, too, right? ) up against just one of the tuned Boxsters. After all, your M-version BMWs, Lancer Evos, and S-model Audis are tuner cars developed in-house...
Well, now you're moving the goalposts. The argument before was "none of these cars are as fast around the track as a Boxster".

How does your list fare against a Ruf 3400S? We'll leave Gemballa, 9ff, et al out of the equation, because they are more bolt-on companies, versus Ruf, who is almost a manufacturer unto itself. Is your Spec Focus going to mop the track with the Ruf?
I've never driven a 3400S, much less on a road course, so I couldn't say. That being said, from what I recall, a 3400S isn't much faster than a 996 3.6, so the possibility of the Spec Focus at least holding its own is excellent.

But take the base model of any of the above-mentioned cars.... find the difference between that base model and their upgraded car (ie, $11K between the Z4 and M Roadster, $10K between the 335 and M3, $16K between the Crossfire and the SRT6, $10K between Solstices, etc)... and give that amount to a base 986 owner.
We already did, and he used it to buy a base 986 or 987. The average 987 on dealer lots is $48K, about two grand south of the M Roadster and just about what an M3 costs, and considerably more than what the SRT6 sold for.

Are you telling me that a base 986 owner, with $10-16 grand in hand, couldn't build a MUCH faster car with simple aftermarket parts?
Here's what I do know: A $60,000 aftermarket-modded Boxster 2.7 would be probably a 320hp car (thanks to a TPC or Evo supercharger) with full coilover suspension. It would be somewhat slower around a road course than a 2004 C5 Z06 and considerably slower than a $60,000 Evo or STi. It might be able to hold its own against one of those Dinan-blown M3s as long as the front straight isn't too long.

Or I guess the better question is: At what point do you give Porsche its due?
I'm about to go spend four hours Dawning and waxing the 993 and 986S in preparation for the next couple of trackday weekends, so I'll say the answer is right now

Dave, I don't know anything about you so for all I know you are a F1-level talented driver who is passing everybody out on the West Coast in your Boxster and attributing that to your car, not your talent... but what I know about myself is that I do between 20 and 40 days on-track every year, I have a couple of competition successes and am scheduled for four more NASA wheel-to-wheel races as well as a full National Solo season before the end of the year, and my experience both driving and observing everything from local trackdays to One Lap of America tells me that Boxsters are not ever going to go out and beat up on Corvettes and EVOs. I've passed a lot of tuned-up 350Zs and Z4s in my car but most of those guys were pretty slow drivers driving awfully fast cars. I recently had the pleasure of lapping a C6 Z06 at Waterford Hills but I think the guy was actually on his cell phone at the time

You won't find a bigger Boxster fan than yours truly. I just like to be realistic about the car and its potential.
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Old 05-06-2007, 06:26 PM
  #40  
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Old 05-06-2007, 07:39 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Well, now you're moving the goalposts. The argument before was "none of these cars are as fast around the track as a Boxster".
No, the comment I was addressing was the "the Boxster can't beat any car that sells for more than $30K." remark you made. I responded to that comment, citing NUMEROUS cars that sell for more than $30k that wouldn't come close to a Boxster at a track. You responded with the typical 'upgraded-this', and 'top-of-the-line' that remarks.
Originally Posted by Pzkw993
I've never driven a 3400S, much less on a road course, so I couldn't say.
AH- one of the "if I haven't seen it for myself or touched it with my own two hands, I don't believe it". No problem, I get where you're coming from.
Originally Posted by Pzkw993
We already did, and he used it to buy a base 986 or 987.
You obviously missed the point of what was said... and I have neither the time nor the inclination to hold your hand through it- find someone else.
Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Here's what I do know: A $60,000 aftermarket-modded Boxster 2.7 would be probably a 320hp car (thanks to a TPC or Evo supercharger) with full coilover suspension.
You know, I had always heard rumours of the $40,000 Supercharger (since you're putting the cost of buying a Boxster at around $10-16K, and figuring roughly $5000 for a good coilover kit- pick your favorite vendor), but I never figured it was true...
Originally Posted by Pzkw993
It would be somewhat slower around a road course than a 2004 C5 Z06 and considerably slower than a $60,000 Evo or STi. It might be able to hold its own against one of those Dinan-blown M3s as long as the front straight isn't too long.
When, at any point, did I try to bring Corvettes (especially the Z06), high-end Evos or any other genuine sportscars into the conversation. Are those the only cars sold in America over $30k? Do you actually read what is written before you spout off with things like this?
Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Dave, I don't know anything about you so for all I know you are a F1-level talented driver who is passing everybody out on the West Coast in your Boxster and attributing that to your car, not your talent... but what I know about myself is that I do between 20 and 40 days on-track every year, I have a couple of competition successes and am scheduled for four more NASA wheel-to-wheel races as well as a full National Solo season before the end of the year, and my experience both driving and observing everything from local trackdays to One Lap of America tells me that Boxsters are not ever going to go out and beat up on Corvettes and EVOs. I've passed a lot of tuned-up 350Zs and Z4s in my car but most of those guys were pretty slow drivers driving awfully fast cars. I recently had the pleasure of lapping a C6 Z06 at Waterford Hills but I think the guy was actually on his cell phone at the time
Um, is this the part where I ?

No? OK- let me know when...

Sure, there was a time when I used to race a friend's Esprit V8TT and all of my Porsches, but that was long ago. I guess I didn't feel the need to turn the thread into a driving-experience pissing contest. But, if you'd like to talk skill sets and life experience, feel FREE to PM me and we can compare...


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Old 05-06-2007, 10:08 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by SDDave
AH- one of the "if I haven't seen it for myself or touched it with my own two hands, I don't believe it". No problem, I get where you're coming from.
Aw, come on. All I am saying is that I won't opine on something I haven't experienced. For all I know, the 3400S is way faster than everything we've discussed. But I don't know.

You know, I had always heard rumours of the $40,000 Supercharger (since you're putting the cost of buying a Boxster at around $10-16K, and figuring roughly $5000 for a good coilover kit- pick your favorite vendor), but I never figured it was true...
I thought we were talking about fairly new cars. If you want to talk about what you can do with used cars... that argument starts and ends with the C4 Vette and Fox Mustang.

Sure, there was a time when I used to race a friend's Esprit V8TT and all of my Porsches, but that was long ago. I guess I didn't feel the need to turn the thread into a driving-experience pissing contest. But, if you'd like to talk skill sets and life experience, feel FREE to PM me and we can compare...
That's awesome that you used to race an Esprit V8. Presumably that makes you an old IMSA hand since I can't recall the Esprit running anywhere else. With that kind of experience, I couldn't begin to tell you anything, as I was still racing bicycles back when IMSA closed up shop. I'm hoping to put a Grand-Am ride together for one or two races next year but it will be a long time before I'm running in a class like that old IMSA GT. Double !!!

I mentioned what I'm doing not to show off or try to intimidate you, but so that you understood my basis for making these comments. I'm not keyboard or magazine racing; I'm out there trying to improve my driving and I'm watching a ton of people driving a ton of cars.

While I was out there putting my Zaino time in, though, I think I came to a realization about our conversation. I'm sure that, just like me, you are sick of people talking trash about the Boxster on the Internet. Every kid who owns a stock WRX wants to pick on the Boxster. It's a shame because they don't understand that a car isn't defined by quarter-mile time or even Nurburgring time. So I hope I didn't come off as one of those people who just wants to rag on Boxsters. I love Boxsters. I love the Boxster so much I'm running one in National Solo instead of an S2000, STi, or C4 Vette. I'm a Boxster fan. And I know you are too. So why don't we shake on it and I'll buy you a beer sometime - you can tell me about those old Esprit days!
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Old 05-07-2007, 12:10 PM
  #43  
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I get confused by a lot of this talk. Now, I have to say right off that I haven't turned lap 1 in my Boxster on a track yet. So, I obviously have no base of direct experience on a track with a Boxster. On the other hand, I have DRIVEN it on more than a few lightly traveled, but extremely knarly, twisty, roads at scary speed and have some idea of what it can do. Here's the thing that confuses me, listening to some of you talk, this is pretty much the slowest sportscar in the world.

I just can't get my arms around that...it just doesn't equate for me. It doesn't equate to what I feel in the car when I drive it. I know I can carry insane speed through a particularly nasty local "S" section with a 90 degree left hander and throw the car back to the right through the 120 degree right hander that follows, without even making the car breath hard. I know I can take a particular local off ramp, that has a severe decreasing radius, a full 30 mph faster than I could even think about in my '88 WS6 T/A. I've never owned a Corvette, but I've driven a few owned by friends (not C6's though), and have never been as impressed as I am with my Boxster. I drove a Z4 and picked the Boxster over it because it felt more nutral and planted. If the Boxster had been outfitted with the ROW M030 suspension, that I have since installed, I wouldn't have felt the Z4 was even close.

So, if your telling me that a whole laundry list full of inexpensive US and JAP cars can trounce a Boxster around, as someone put it, pretty much any track you can think of, I 'm floored by that statement. The only thing I can think of is that the Boxsters are getting crushed in straight line acceleration corner-to-corner, and even though they carry more speed through the corners, it isn't enough to make up for the acceleration difference. However if that were the case, I would think that sacrificing a little of their 158 mph top end speed for quicker acceleration would be in order (especially for AXers), and would drive a market for close ratio gear sets - or at least alternate gearing - but I haven't seen either of those readily available.

Also, my local SCCA autox AS results show a decent amount of Boxster top 3 finishes last year and so far this year. No, they don't dominate, but they appear to be competitive with the Evo's and S2000's. Still, I don't think I'll be trading my 986 for an Evo or S2000 anytime soon, but I might go test drive a couple to see what they are made of. My 986 still impresses me more than any other car I've driven, and it's still an absolute blast to drive.

Know what else?... I waited close to 30 years to get my first Porsche. Dreamed about it from the time I was old enough to drive. Maybe the 986 isn't the flagship of the line, but it IS a Porsche. I know I didn't dream about owning a Honda, or a Mitsubishi, or a Mazda, or a Pontiac, for the last 30 years........
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Old 05-07-2007, 01:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Pzkw993
You should have been more careful in your ironic selection of cars. Of the cars you listed, the Z4 3.0si, Crossfire SRT6, new-generation G35, and 350Z will all trounce a Boxster 2.7 around many road courses with equal drivers. They all have just as much tire, if not more, and considerably more power. I'd also be really careful about laughing at the Cooper JCW.
patently false; i own a G35 in addition to the boxster. the G35 is a pig compared to the box. my 2.5L will trounce the G35 all day long.

Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Heck, even that crummy Honda S2000 will smack a Boxster 2.7 around nearly any track you care to name.
highly debatable. we have to be sure we're comparing apples to apples. most S2000's are tweaked out. most boxsters are not. i'll take a stock box over a stock s2000 any day, any track.

Originally Posted by Pzkw993
Oh yeah - it's possible to go faster than a Boxster really cheap. Anybody here ever turned a 1:48 around Mid-Ohio in a stock Boxster? It's not possible. Even in a 986S, it requires total commitment and a willingness to drive the car so hard that hitting the wall is more a probability than a possibility. It's also a pretty standard qualifying lap time for Spec Neon, Spec Miata, and Spec Focus.
again, compare apples to apples. throw a SPEC boxster into that mix instead of a base box; it will stomp the daylights out of the others. you cannot compare a street car to a track prepared race car.

i'm not in this discussion to say that the box beats everything around. i am DEFINITELY here to say that it's underappreciated. so few people take the time to prep these cars to perform the way they truly can perform. there really aren't many cars below 350HP that can keep up with a well prepared boxster and a good driver. i stand by that through experience.

another comparison: i watched ernie j's cayman S PCA racer (stock class) beat several GT3 cup cars at road atlanta this year.
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Old 05-07-2007, 03:13 PM
  #45  
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Maybe that's my problem with all this insite....I did take the time to set it up right, so I'm having a hard time relating.....
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