Are Boxsters the cause of P envy?
11-15-2002, 01:15 PM
#32
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Personally, I don't think the newer cars offer any more longevity than the older ones. There are a host of people out there who have experienced early Boxster engine failure, just like the new BMW M3 engines have experienced. I'd take less warranty provided I knew it was going to last. The warranty is more of a PR thing than anything, of course they are getting longer and more thorough.
11-15-2002, 11:28 PM
#33
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[quote]Originally posted by craigg:
[QB]If it is craftsmanship, then my best measuring stick is the warranty that the manufacturer puts on their product. My MY01 Boxster S has a 50,000 mile or 4 year bumper to bumper which, I believe, may be the longest and most comprehensive that Porsche has offered...[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Have you seen the new Kia warranties..? Not very good yardstick when it comes to measuring craftmanship.
Fact also is that today's Porsches (not only Boxster, 996 also) are more built to everyone as where 993s & older where built as 'drivers cars', you can say this, or that, but that's just a fact.
Don't get me wrong, I like Boxsters very much but facts are facts, Porsches aren't what they used to be.
BTW, about Boxster single handedly saving Porsche, there was few 911s sold too (and I believe profit margin was bixxer than Boxsters), here are 911 production numbers b/ween 94-98:
Worldwide production from 1/94 to 7/94 (model year 1994): Carrera-7865 (US-Canada 1453), Cab-7074 (US-Can 1224), Cup-100.
Worldwide production from 8/94 to 7/95 (model year 1995): Carrera-11157 (US-Can 4139), Cab-6596 (US-Can 3718), Turbo-78, Cup-110, RS-274
Worldwide production from 8/95 to 7/96 (model year 1996): Carrera-10433 (US-Can 3671), Targa-2442 (US-Can 462), Cab-4218 (US-Can 2152), Turbo-3841 (US-Can 1357), GT2-202
Worldwide production from 8/96 to 7/97 (model year 1997): Carrera-10766 (US-Can 4972), Targa-1843 (US-Can 567), Cab-3836 (US-Can 2157), Turbo-2018 (US-Can 1046)
Worldwide production from 8/97 to 7/98 (model year 1998): Carrera-2072 (US-Can 1292), Targa-334 (US-Can 122), Cab-1339 (US-Can 1201), Turbo-739, Cup-30, GT2-21
[QB]If it is craftsmanship, then my best measuring stick is the warranty that the manufacturer puts on their product. My MY01 Boxster S has a 50,000 mile or 4 year bumper to bumper which, I believe, may be the longest and most comprehensive that Porsche has offered...[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Have you seen the new Kia warranties..? Not very good yardstick when it comes to measuring craftmanship.
Fact also is that today's Porsches (not only Boxster, 996 also) are more built to everyone as where 993s & older where built as 'drivers cars', you can say this, or that, but that's just a fact.
Don't get me wrong, I like Boxsters very much but facts are facts, Porsches aren't what they used to be.
BTW, about Boxster single handedly saving Porsche, there was few 911s sold too (and I believe profit margin was bixxer than Boxsters), here are 911 production numbers b/ween 94-98:
Worldwide production from 1/94 to 7/94 (model year 1994): Carrera-7865 (US-Canada 1453), Cab-7074 (US-Can 1224), Cup-100.
Worldwide production from 8/94 to 7/95 (model year 1995): Carrera-11157 (US-Can 4139), Cab-6596 (US-Can 3718), Turbo-78, Cup-110, RS-274
Worldwide production from 8/95 to 7/96 (model year 1996): Carrera-10433 (US-Can 3671), Targa-2442 (US-Can 462), Cab-4218 (US-Can 2152), Turbo-3841 (US-Can 1357), GT2-202
Worldwide production from 8/96 to 7/97 (model year 1997): Carrera-10766 (US-Can 4972), Targa-1843 (US-Can 567), Cab-3836 (US-Can 2157), Turbo-2018 (US-Can 1046)
Worldwide production from 8/97 to 7/98 (model year 1998): Carrera-2072 (US-Can 1292), Targa-334 (US-Can 122), Cab-1339 (US-Can 1201), Turbo-739, Cup-30, GT2-21
11-16-2002, 12:39 AM
#34
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FF,
Come on, get real, the Boxster is every bit as much as "Drivers Car" as the 993. That's simply your opinion and not based in fact.
Please also post the Boxster production numbers from 97-2002 and I think you'll be amazed at how high they were in the early years (they've come down out of the clouds in the last 18 months due to the economy).
I like the 993, (as witnessed by other threads here), but to say that it is somehow "better" than the Boxster because it is more of a "driver's car" or as some would put it more of a "true" Porsche is just hogwash and smacks of the type of elitism we are trying to AVOID in these threads.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
Come on, get real, the Boxster is every bit as much as "Drivers Car" as the 993. That's simply your opinion and not based in fact.
Please also post the Boxster production numbers from 97-2002 and I think you'll be amazed at how high they were in the early years (they've come down out of the clouds in the last 18 months due to the economy).
I like the 993, (as witnessed by other threads here), but to say that it is somehow "better" than the Boxster because it is more of a "driver's car" or as some would put it more of a "true" Porsche is just hogwash and smacks of the type of elitism we are trying to AVOID in these threads.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
11-16-2002, 01:37 AM
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I agree about the 993 being more of a driver's car than the Boxter or 996. The mystique of the Porsche went away when they stopped making 928s and 993s and replaced them with Boxsters and 996s.
Today, Porsche has become more of a mass produced high profit car, making Porsche one of the most (if not the most)profitable automobile manufacturer(s) in the world.
Don't get me wrong, the 996 and Boxster are great high performance cars, but, well there is just no mystique or appeal like they used to have.
Today, Porsche has become more of a mass produced high profit car, making Porsche one of the most (if not the most)profitable automobile manufacturer(s) in the world.
Don't get me wrong, the 996 and Boxster are great high performance cars, but, well there is just no mystique or appeal like they used to have.
11-16-2002, 02:38 AM
#36
[quote]Porsches aren't what they used to be <hr></blockquote>
People have been saying "Porsches aren't what they used to be" since, oh, 1965.
And I guess it's true. The 911 was not the 356. The 914 was not the 911. The 928 was not the 911. The 944 was not the 924. The 968 was not the 944. The 986 was not the 968. The 996 was not the 993.
And so on...
I think it is fair to criticize PAG for specific business decisions like, say, halting the factory racing program and building an SUV. But simply saying "Porsches aren't what they used to be" is vague and frankly not convincing in the slightest. Porsche has lost none of its mystique whatsoever. If anything, the sales figures indicate that the mystique is greater than ever.
It is human nature to romanticize the past. But it is nevertheless humorous to see how owners of older Porsches view the newer models with skepticism. The same has been happening since the dawn of the 911.
In the view of some people, the 944 is a "real Porsche" while the 996 is not! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
They are ALL real Porsches... and believe me, the new ones are fantastic. Over the next few years, we'll see them come into the hands of more and more enthusiasts...and they will be recognized for simply being great cars.
People have been saying "Porsches aren't what they used to be" since, oh, 1965.
And I guess it's true. The 911 was not the 356. The 914 was not the 911. The 928 was not the 911. The 944 was not the 924. The 968 was not the 944. The 986 was not the 968. The 996 was not the 993.
And so on...
I think it is fair to criticize PAG for specific business decisions like, say, halting the factory racing program and building an SUV. But simply saying "Porsches aren't what they used to be" is vague and frankly not convincing in the slightest. Porsche has lost none of its mystique whatsoever. If anything, the sales figures indicate that the mystique is greater than ever.
It is human nature to romanticize the past. But it is nevertheless humorous to see how owners of older Porsches view the newer models with skepticism. The same has been happening since the dawn of the 911.
In the view of some people, the 944 is a "real Porsche" while the 996 is not! <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
They are ALL real Porsches... and believe me, the new ones are fantastic. Over the next few years, we'll see them come into the hands of more and more enthusiasts...and they will be recognized for simply being great cars.
11-16-2002, 03:09 PM
#37
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Ken,
I'm not trying to hogwash or anything like that. But it really is like that.
For Example, 996 is faster, it's handling charsteriscs are easier than 993s or any older 911.
In other words, 'anyone' can drive quite fast with 996, where same person might've not been able to do that in earlier cars.
This btw, was confirmed by one worker at Stuttgart that also.
Is it better? Well, actually, it's worse. since car is supposed to hadle well, right?
It's only better if you like 911 kind of handling & or can be fast in it (so, you need experiense), but for many, I guess it's not.
Don't get me wrong man, I'm not trying to convince you that Boxster isn't as good or better than 993, or older (or any car) but for me, direction where cupholders & sunroofs are becoming vital parts is not something I like. But that's just me, for most Porsche buyers, those kind of 'elements' are becoming more and more important.
But the fact that 993s & older cars demand more from their driver is just a fact, not necessary a good thing for most of us, but that's the way it is.
Same thing with build quality, if you haven't noticed it, then I guess you never will but it is there, no question about it.
And yes, I've driven Boxster and 996s.
As for the numbers, I was trying to get Bocster numbers, but i couldn't find. Does anyone have them, it would be interesting to know.
For sure I'm not dismissing Boxster's 'saving of the company', just wanted to point out that it wasn't ONLY boxster which did it. Like I said, I think it's a great car (especially the S) and I take pride from the fact that almost all US Boxsters are built about 60 miles from where my house is.
Sean, I agree, that's basically the way it goes. I just hope they don't go too soft.
We're all same family, so chill out everyone!
Oh, sorry that this came out so long... Din't have enough time to make it shorter...
I'm not trying to hogwash or anything like that. But it really is like that.
For Example, 996 is faster, it's handling charsteriscs are easier than 993s or any older 911.
In other words, 'anyone' can drive quite fast with 996, where same person might've not been able to do that in earlier cars.
This btw, was confirmed by one worker at Stuttgart that also.
Is it better? Well, actually, it's worse. since car is supposed to hadle well, right?
It's only better if you like 911 kind of handling & or can be fast in it (so, you need experiense), but for many, I guess it's not.
Don't get me wrong man, I'm not trying to convince you that Boxster isn't as good or better than 993, or older (or any car) but for me, direction where cupholders & sunroofs are becoming vital parts is not something I like. But that's just me, for most Porsche buyers, those kind of 'elements' are becoming more and more important.
But the fact that 993s & older cars demand more from their driver is just a fact, not necessary a good thing for most of us, but that's the way it is.
Same thing with build quality, if you haven't noticed it, then I guess you never will but it is there, no question about it.
And yes, I've driven Boxster and 996s.
As for the numbers, I was trying to get Bocster numbers, but i couldn't find. Does anyone have them, it would be interesting to know.
For sure I'm not dismissing Boxster's 'saving of the company', just wanted to point out that it wasn't ONLY boxster which did it. Like I said, I think it's a great car (especially the S) and I take pride from the fact that almost all US Boxsters are built about 60 miles from where my house is.
Sean, I agree, that's basically the way it goes. I just hope they don't go too soft.
We're all same family, so chill out everyone!
Oh, sorry that this came out so long... Din't have enough time to make it shorter...
11-16-2002, 03:36 PM
#38
To expand on FF point on profit margins...My understanding is the Boxster and the variations of the 996 have basically sold 1:1 for much of their production runs and that there is a bigger profit margin in the 996 vs. the 986.
Another interesting point is it wasn’t the just the Boxster or 996 that saved Porsche from financial ruin, but it was also the production method and design philosophy. Even with Porsche's record sales, it is still a limited production manufacturer, therefore, profit margins on its vehicles are undeniably important. By designing the Boxster and 996 to share many of the same parts, production cost for both cars dropped dramatically and allowed greater profitability for each car. It is also well documented that Porsche brought in consultants in the early 90's to stream line production and drop the cost of production thereby increasing profits. Even the 993 benefitted from more stream lined manufacturing as the cost of it actually decreased from the 964.
The economics of the times also can not be over looked. During the late 80's and early 90's people were not buying luxury items such as a brand new Porsche. This only compounded the profit margin problems Porsche had with its cars. However, the world economy and the US economy in particular enjoyed great growth during the mid and late 90's. Fortunately for Porsche the Boxster was released as a new car during these very favorable economic times when people were buying luxury items. Additionally, two seater roadsters were the hot car to have as is evident by the success of the Miata, CLK and Z-3. Porsche was fairly timely and produced a well thought out car. As the economy has slowed for the last year it is estimated deliveries of new Porsche are also slowing and if you look at most dealerships they have a good inventory on hand, unlike 2 years ago.
The Boxster is a very capable and fun car to drive. I owned a MY 2000 Boxster for 14 months before selling it and purchasing my 993. There are things about the Boxster I miss and I see my self in a couple of years once again looking for 2000 Boxster for myself. The Boxster is a Porsche and it is a great car but to say it single handedly saved Porsche is overstating and simplifying things as this statement does not take inconsideration the Boxster and the 996 deviated from the “old Porsche” way of thinking by incorporating new methods of manufacturing, design and production.
Another interesting point is it wasn’t the just the Boxster or 996 that saved Porsche from financial ruin, but it was also the production method and design philosophy. Even with Porsche's record sales, it is still a limited production manufacturer, therefore, profit margins on its vehicles are undeniably important. By designing the Boxster and 996 to share many of the same parts, production cost for both cars dropped dramatically and allowed greater profitability for each car. It is also well documented that Porsche brought in consultants in the early 90's to stream line production and drop the cost of production thereby increasing profits. Even the 993 benefitted from more stream lined manufacturing as the cost of it actually decreased from the 964.
The economics of the times also can not be over looked. During the late 80's and early 90's people were not buying luxury items such as a brand new Porsche. This only compounded the profit margin problems Porsche had with its cars. However, the world economy and the US economy in particular enjoyed great growth during the mid and late 90's. Fortunately for Porsche the Boxster was released as a new car during these very favorable economic times when people were buying luxury items. Additionally, two seater roadsters were the hot car to have as is evident by the success of the Miata, CLK and Z-3. Porsche was fairly timely and produced a well thought out car. As the economy has slowed for the last year it is estimated deliveries of new Porsche are also slowing and if you look at most dealerships they have a good inventory on hand, unlike 2 years ago.
The Boxster is a very capable and fun car to drive. I owned a MY 2000 Boxster for 14 months before selling it and purchasing my 993. There are things about the Boxster I miss and I see my self in a couple of years once again looking for 2000 Boxster for myself. The Boxster is a Porsche and it is a great car but to say it single handedly saved Porsche is overstating and simplifying things as this statement does not take inconsideration the Boxster and the 996 deviated from the “old Porsche” way of thinking by incorporating new methods of manufacturing, design and production.
11-16-2002, 06:09 PM
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I see wherein the misconception lies, it isn't a misconception about the car, it is a miconception on what a "drivers car" means.
FF, you are using a much too over simplified meaning of a "Drivers Car". For you, a drivers car is a car that requires a lot of effort to get the best performance out of. For example, taking the 993 to the track, in order to get your times into say the top 10% of all 993 times around that track you'd really have to work at it, learning all of the idosynchricies of that car. If I am hearing you correctly you are stating that if I took a Boxster out on the track that I could get my times into the top 10% of all Boxster times faster or with less effort.
To distill this down:
Being hard to drive fast = a Driver's Car
I would like to posit that the statement above and that line of reasoning is over simplified. As an example, what if I installed 2 clutches and 2 stick shifts into a Boxster. Gears 1-3 would be handled by the clutch pedal on the left and gear shift on the right, and Gears 4-6 would be just the opposite.
That would be hard to drive wouldn't it? Probably would take a lot of practice wouldn't it? Probably would require more driver interaction and thought too I suspect.
Does that make it suddenly a "Drivers Car" now?
In fact, hold onto your seats. I'm going to argue just the opposite is in fact true. The Boxster is more of a "Drivers Car" because a driver can learn more about the minute differences that separate good from great behind the wheel of a Boxster.
I will agree with you that the Boxster is easier to drive fast than the 993 and probably almost any other car out there. So far so good huh?
Where I will draw the distinction is in learning curves. Let's take a typical DE at a local track, 2 days, 4-5 run sessions per day. A drivers car like the 993 might take until the end of the 2nd day to get their times down below 2 minutes around the track. The Boxster driver, on the other hand, has probably been consistently running at or below 2 minutes around the track since mid way through the first day.
This allows the Boxster driver to meld with the vehicle faster and become more aware of the minutia of things happening around him/her, so in touch with the road and the vehicle that it becomes an extenion of the drivers brain. The challenge for the brain, and for the driver is for the Boxster owner to squeeze that little bit extra out of the Boxster that it doesn't have "on average" for the average Joe. Spending more time at the "limits" for the car if you will as opposed to taking more of the driver's time "ramping up" learning all of the idosynchricies.
Now I've obviously exaggerated a few things and assumed a few things to make a point, but to distill it down in my OPINION
A true "Drivers Car" is a car in which the driver doesn't have to worry about the indosynchracies of the car, but rather can get up to the limit in quickly and spend the majority of their time exploring the limits and pushing the bounds to make the difference between merely a "good" driver and a "great" driver.
As any F1 or GT driver, they don't want a car that they have to learn all the "bugs" in, if that's the right term, they want a car that is reliable and consistent and in which they can immediately press the limits in all day long trying to eek out that little bit of an advantage over their opponents.
A statement like "A Drivers Car" all depends on how you define it. It would appear that you and I have different definitions. It doesn't necessarily make one of them "right" or "wrong", simply different.
I can certainly accept your opinion that by your definition the 993 is more of a Drivers Car as long as you can accept my opinion that by my definition the Boxster is more of a Drivers Car.
In other words, I am happy to agree to disagree...
BTW, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you earlier, but we've had a rash of 928/951 owners coming in here lately bashing on the Boxster.
FF, you are using a much too over simplified meaning of a "Drivers Car". For you, a drivers car is a car that requires a lot of effort to get the best performance out of. For example, taking the 993 to the track, in order to get your times into say the top 10% of all 993 times around that track you'd really have to work at it, learning all of the idosynchricies of that car. If I am hearing you correctly you are stating that if I took a Boxster out on the track that I could get my times into the top 10% of all Boxster times faster or with less effort.
To distill this down:
Being hard to drive fast = a Driver's Car
I would like to posit that the statement above and that line of reasoning is over simplified. As an example, what if I installed 2 clutches and 2 stick shifts into a Boxster. Gears 1-3 would be handled by the clutch pedal on the left and gear shift on the right, and Gears 4-6 would be just the opposite.
That would be hard to drive wouldn't it? Probably would take a lot of practice wouldn't it? Probably would require more driver interaction and thought too I suspect.
Does that make it suddenly a "Drivers Car" now?
In fact, hold onto your seats. I'm going to argue just the opposite is in fact true. The Boxster is more of a "Drivers Car" because a driver can learn more about the minute differences that separate good from great behind the wheel of a Boxster.
I will agree with you that the Boxster is easier to drive fast than the 993 and probably almost any other car out there. So far so good huh?
Where I will draw the distinction is in learning curves. Let's take a typical DE at a local track, 2 days, 4-5 run sessions per day. A drivers car like the 993 might take until the end of the 2nd day to get their times down below 2 minutes around the track. The Boxster driver, on the other hand, has probably been consistently running at or below 2 minutes around the track since mid way through the first day.
This allows the Boxster driver to meld with the vehicle faster and become more aware of the minutia of things happening around him/her, so in touch with the road and the vehicle that it becomes an extenion of the drivers brain. The challenge for the brain, and for the driver is for the Boxster owner to squeeze that little bit extra out of the Boxster that it doesn't have "on average" for the average Joe. Spending more time at the "limits" for the car if you will as opposed to taking more of the driver's time "ramping up" learning all of the idosynchricies.
Now I've obviously exaggerated a few things and assumed a few things to make a point, but to distill it down in my OPINION
A true "Drivers Car" is a car in which the driver doesn't have to worry about the indosynchracies of the car, but rather can get up to the limit in quickly and spend the majority of their time exploring the limits and pushing the bounds to make the difference between merely a "good" driver and a "great" driver.
As any F1 or GT driver, they don't want a car that they have to learn all the "bugs" in, if that's the right term, they want a car that is reliable and consistent and in which they can immediately press the limits in all day long trying to eek out that little bit of an advantage over their opponents.
A statement like "A Drivers Car" all depends on how you define it. It would appear that you and I have different definitions. It doesn't necessarily make one of them "right" or "wrong", simply different.
I can certainly accept your opinion that by your definition the 993 is more of a Drivers Car as long as you can accept my opinion that by my definition the Boxster is more of a Drivers Car.
In other words, I am happy to agree to disagree...
BTW, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you earlier, but we've had a rash of 928/951 owners coming in here lately bashing on the Boxster.
11-16-2002, 06:13 PM
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BTW, I know that Craigg may have been stirring the pot a bit with the post that started this whole thread.
In my opinion Porsche changed the way in which in did business in order to survive. The Boxster was the first fruit to fall from the new branch of the tree. If the Boxster had not been successful, in other words if the fruit had been sour, then I'm not sure Porsche would be around today. Does that mean the Boxster single-handedly saved Porsche? I maybe wouldn't use that direct analogy because it could have been any other Porsche model that happened to be coming to market at that time as the first new offering from new management and using new management and construction methods.
The Boxster was a success though, and Porsche lives on, had it not been, I'm not sure if Porsche could have lived on, at least not as the same company it is today, maybe as a division of BMW or Mercedes, etc.
In my opinion Porsche changed the way in which in did business in order to survive. The Boxster was the first fruit to fall from the new branch of the tree. If the Boxster had not been successful, in other words if the fruit had been sour, then I'm not sure Porsche would be around today. Does that mean the Boxster single-handedly saved Porsche? I maybe wouldn't use that direct analogy because it could have been any other Porsche model that happened to be coming to market at that time as the first new offering from new management and using new management and construction methods.
The Boxster was a success though, and Porsche lives on, had it not been, I'm not sure if Porsche could have lived on, at least not as the same company it is today, maybe as a division of BMW or Mercedes, etc.
11-16-2002, 06:20 PM
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Since the Boxster came out 2 full model years before the 996, and the 993 was in declining production numbers at the time, I don't see that the production techniques were the whole story. One could interpret this that the 996 looks like the Boxster, not the other way around
There is no doubt Porsche had to keep up with the times and become a more efficient manufacturer or esle they would be out of business or taken over by now.
The result of these techniques has disturbed a group of "bank-vault" afficienados who have posted earlier in this thread, by the way. They seem to feel the change was not for the better and that hand built "quality" is superior to the current methods. Ya can't please all the people all the time, can ya!
In any event, the Boxster is proving to be one of the the top sports cars in the world - certainly in a different class than the 996 - but a winning Porsche in every respect.
There is no doubt Porsche had to keep up with the times and become a more efficient manufacturer or esle they would be out of business or taken over by now.
The result of these techniques has disturbed a group of "bank-vault" afficienados who have posted earlier in this thread, by the way. They seem to feel the change was not for the better and that hand built "quality" is superior to the current methods. Ya can't please all the people all the time, can ya!
In any event, the Boxster is proving to be one of the the top sports cars in the world - certainly in a different class than the 996 - but a winning Porsche in every respect.
11-16-2002, 06:56 PM
#42
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[quote]Originally posted by Ken2KS:
<strong>I see wherein the misconception lies, it isn't a misconception about the car, it is a miconception on what a "drivers car" means.
FF, you are using a much too over simplified meaning of a "Drivers Car". For you, a drivers car is a car that requires a lot of effort to get the best performance out of. For example, taking the 993 to the track, in order to get your times into say the top 10% of all 993 times around that track you'd really have to work at it, learning all of the idosynchricies of that car. If I am hearing you correctly you are stating that if I took a Boxster out on the track that I could get my times into the top 10% of all Boxster times faster or with less effort.
To distill this down:
Being hard to drive fast = a Driver's Car
I would like to posit that the statement above and that line of reasoning is over simplified. As an example, what if I installed 2 clutches and 2 stick shifts into a Boxster. Gears 1-3 would be handled by the clutch pedal on the left and gear shift on the right, and Gears 4-6 would be just the opposite.
That would be hard to drive wouldn't it? Probably would take a lot of practice wouldn't it? Probably would require more driver interaction and thought too I suspect.
Does that make it suddenly a "Drivers Car" now?
In fact, hold onto your seats. I'm going to argue just the opposite is in fact true. The Boxster is more of a "Drivers Car" because a driver can learn more about the minute differences that separate good from great behind the wheel of a Boxster.
I will agree with you that the Boxster is easier to drive fast than the 993 and probably almost any other car out there. So far so good huh?
Where I will draw the distinction is in learning curves. Let's take a typical DE at a local track, 2 days, 4-5 run sessions per day. A drivers car like the 993 might take until the end of the 2nd day to get their times down below 2 minutes around the track. The Boxster driver, on the other hand, has probably been consistently running at or below 2 minutes around the track since mid way through the first day.
This allows the Boxster driver to meld with the vehicle faster and become more aware of the minutia of things happening around him/her, so in touch with the road and the vehicle that it becomes an extenion of the drivers brain. The challenge for the brain, and for the driver is for the Boxster owner to squeeze that little bit extra out of the Boxster that it doesn't have "on average" for the average Joe. Spending more time at the "limits" for the car if you will as opposed to taking more of the driver's time "ramping up" learning all of the idosynchricies.
Now I've obviously exaggerated a few things and assumed a few things to make a point, but to distill it down in my OPINION
A true "Drivers Car" is a car in which the driver doesn't have to worry about the indosynchracies of the car, but rather can get up to the limit in quickly and spend the majority of their time exploring the limits and pushing the bounds to make the difference between merely a "good" driver and a "great" driver.
As any F1 or GT driver, they don't want a car that they have to learn all the "bugs" in, if that's the right term, they want a car that is reliable and consistent and in which they can immediately press the limits in all day long trying to eek out that little bit of an advantage over their opponents.
A statement like "A Drivers Car" all depends on how you define it. It would appear that you and I have different definitions. It doesn't necessarily make one of them "right" or "wrong", simply different.
I can certainly accept your opinion that by your definition the 993 is more of a Drivers Car as long as you can accept my opinion that by my definition the Boxster is more of a Drivers Car.
In other words, I am happy to agree to disagree...
BTW, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you earlier, but we've had a rash of 928/951 owners coming in here lately bashing on the Boxster.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excellent discussion.
Its all about definitions of what a better Drivers Car is (an easier to learn car or a more difficult car to master?). For me, Ken has hit the nail right on the proverbial head, a better Drivers Car to me is one which allows a driver with a particular set of skills to go faster than he could have with another car. So, if I can get out of my 993 and into a 986 and drive it faster around the same track at 10/10ths, then to me the 986 would be the better car (better Drivers Car?)...
Conversely, if I were to get out of my 993 and into (say) my old 3.2 Carrera, and go around the same track, I would say that the 993 was definitely the better car because it handles so much more predictably at 10/10ths, and requires much less effort to drive....
I think that the 3.2 Carrera was definitely more involving and required more concentration at 7/10ths as compared with my 993, but I would still say that the 993 was a better car (for me anyway).
Of course, if someone wants a challenging car to drive, then they may argue that the 3.2 Carrera was more of a drivers car (and indeed a short wheelbase early 911, or a 356 speedster even more of a drivers car).
For me, I just want something which goes faster in my hands without increasing the danger factor....
Actually, yesterday went for a morning drive with a couple of guys...one of which was a Boxster S (beautiful seal grey with M030 suspension)...and the Boxster S really takes the twisties beautifully...admit I am still running on the notorious bog standard 993 suspension and the Boxster S driver is definietly a better driver, but man is that Boxster S a sweatheart with the top down at 7 in the morning....one day, hope to have one alongside my 993 in the garage....
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<strong>I see wherein the misconception lies, it isn't a misconception about the car, it is a miconception on what a "drivers car" means.
FF, you are using a much too over simplified meaning of a "Drivers Car". For you, a drivers car is a car that requires a lot of effort to get the best performance out of. For example, taking the 993 to the track, in order to get your times into say the top 10% of all 993 times around that track you'd really have to work at it, learning all of the idosynchricies of that car. If I am hearing you correctly you are stating that if I took a Boxster out on the track that I could get my times into the top 10% of all Boxster times faster or with less effort.
To distill this down:
Being hard to drive fast = a Driver's Car
I would like to posit that the statement above and that line of reasoning is over simplified. As an example, what if I installed 2 clutches and 2 stick shifts into a Boxster. Gears 1-3 would be handled by the clutch pedal on the left and gear shift on the right, and Gears 4-6 would be just the opposite.
That would be hard to drive wouldn't it? Probably would take a lot of practice wouldn't it? Probably would require more driver interaction and thought too I suspect.
Does that make it suddenly a "Drivers Car" now?
In fact, hold onto your seats. I'm going to argue just the opposite is in fact true. The Boxster is more of a "Drivers Car" because a driver can learn more about the minute differences that separate good from great behind the wheel of a Boxster.
I will agree with you that the Boxster is easier to drive fast than the 993 and probably almost any other car out there. So far so good huh?
Where I will draw the distinction is in learning curves. Let's take a typical DE at a local track, 2 days, 4-5 run sessions per day. A drivers car like the 993 might take until the end of the 2nd day to get their times down below 2 minutes around the track. The Boxster driver, on the other hand, has probably been consistently running at or below 2 minutes around the track since mid way through the first day.
This allows the Boxster driver to meld with the vehicle faster and become more aware of the minutia of things happening around him/her, so in touch with the road and the vehicle that it becomes an extenion of the drivers brain. The challenge for the brain, and for the driver is for the Boxster owner to squeeze that little bit extra out of the Boxster that it doesn't have "on average" for the average Joe. Spending more time at the "limits" for the car if you will as opposed to taking more of the driver's time "ramping up" learning all of the idosynchricies.
Now I've obviously exaggerated a few things and assumed a few things to make a point, but to distill it down in my OPINION
A true "Drivers Car" is a car in which the driver doesn't have to worry about the indosynchracies of the car, but rather can get up to the limit in quickly and spend the majority of their time exploring the limits and pushing the bounds to make the difference between merely a "good" driver and a "great" driver.
As any F1 or GT driver, they don't want a car that they have to learn all the "bugs" in, if that's the right term, they want a car that is reliable and consistent and in which they can immediately press the limits in all day long trying to eek out that little bit of an advantage over their opponents.
A statement like "A Drivers Car" all depends on how you define it. It would appear that you and I have different definitions. It doesn't necessarily make one of them "right" or "wrong", simply different.
I can certainly accept your opinion that by your definition the 993 is more of a Drivers Car as long as you can accept my opinion that by my definition the Boxster is more of a Drivers Car.
In other words, I am happy to agree to disagree...
BTW, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you earlier, but we've had a rash of 928/951 owners coming in here lately bashing on the Boxster.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excellent discussion.
Its all about definitions of what a better Drivers Car is (an easier to learn car or a more difficult car to master?). For me, Ken has hit the nail right on the proverbial head, a better Drivers Car to me is one which allows a driver with a particular set of skills to go faster than he could have with another car. So, if I can get out of my 993 and into a 986 and drive it faster around the same track at 10/10ths, then to me the 986 would be the better car (better Drivers Car?)...
Conversely, if I were to get out of my 993 and into (say) my old 3.2 Carrera, and go around the same track, I would say that the 993 was definitely the better car because it handles so much more predictably at 10/10ths, and requires much less effort to drive....
I think that the 3.2 Carrera was definitely more involving and required more concentration at 7/10ths as compared with my 993, but I would still say that the 993 was a better car (for me anyway).
Of course, if someone wants a challenging car to drive, then they may argue that the 3.2 Carrera was more of a drivers car (and indeed a short wheelbase early 911, or a 356 speedster even more of a drivers car).
For me, I just want something which goes faster in my hands without increasing the danger factor....
Actually, yesterday went for a morning drive with a couple of guys...one of which was a Boxster S (beautiful seal grey with M030 suspension)...and the Boxster S really takes the twisties beautifully...admit I am still running on the notorious bog standard 993 suspension and the Boxster S driver is definietly a better driver, but man is that Boxster S a sweatheart with the top down at 7 in the morning....one day, hope to have one alongside my 993 in the garage....
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
11-16-2002, 10:55 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Ken2KS,
Where does your statement that the Boxster has stronger rollover protection than a 996 coupe come from? I can't imagine that anyone would prefer to roll a Boxster than a 996 coupe unless something REALLY persuasive indicates otherwise.
Where does your statement that the Boxster has stronger rollover protection than a 996 coupe come from? I can't imagine that anyone would prefer to roll a Boxster than a 996 coupe unless something REALLY persuasive indicates otherwise.
11-16-2002, 11:32 PM
#44
King of Cool
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Driver's car is (how I've 'learned' it):
A car that demands more, but once you master it, gives more.
For example, mediacore driver could be only 1 second down from great driver's lap times in a car that's been built 'for everyone'.
Where as great driver in more demanding car (= driver's car) would be 3 seconds faster than mediocre driver in that car.
For example formula 1 car (especially before all the driver aids they have nowadays) will be the fastes car in the world around the race track, but only in good hands. Where as mediocre driver couldn't get two corner without spinning, or if they could, their lap times would be 20 seconds slower.
If you'd take Schumi & 'average Joe' to the track with two cars; Ferrari's 2000 model F1 & Fiat Punto.
Schumi propably would be about 40 seconds faster (in a track where lap time is 1.30) than our 'average Joe' but when they'd try with Fiat Punto, Schumi would be only 15 seconds faster.
Even thoug 'Joe' got his lap times closer to Schumi's times with Punto, I don't think Punto is the 'driver's car'?
996 GT2 is more 'driver's car' than 996,
993 GT2 is more 'driver's car than 993,
930 is more 'driver's car' than 911 etc. etc...
A car that demands more, but once you master it, gives more.
For example, mediacore driver could be only 1 second down from great driver's lap times in a car that's been built 'for everyone'.
Where as great driver in more demanding car (= driver's car) would be 3 seconds faster than mediocre driver in that car.
For example formula 1 car (especially before all the driver aids they have nowadays) will be the fastes car in the world around the race track, but only in good hands. Where as mediocre driver couldn't get two corner without spinning, or if they could, their lap times would be 20 seconds slower.
If you'd take Schumi & 'average Joe' to the track with two cars; Ferrari's 2000 model F1 & Fiat Punto.
Schumi propably would be about 40 seconds faster (in a track where lap time is 1.30) than our 'average Joe' but when they'd try with Fiat Punto, Schumi would be only 15 seconds faster.
Even thoug 'Joe' got his lap times closer to Schumi's times with Punto, I don't think Punto is the 'driver's car'?
996 GT2 is more 'driver's car' than 996,
993 GT2 is more 'driver's car than 993,
930 is more 'driver's car' than 911 etc. etc...
11-17-2002, 01:28 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>Driver's car is (how I've 'learned' it):
A car that demands more, but once you master it, gives more.
For example, mediacore driver could be only 1 second down from great driver's lap times in a car that's been built 'for everyone'.
Where as great driver in more demanding car (= driver's car) would be 3 seconds faster than mediocre driver in that car.
For example formula 1 car (especially before all the driver aids they have nowadays) will be the fastes car in the world around the race track, but only in good hands. Where as mediocre driver couldn't get two corner without spinning, or if they could, their lap times would be 20 seconds slower.
If you'd take Schumi & 'average Joe' to the track with two cars; Ferrari's 2000 model F1 & Fiat Punto.
Schumi propably would be about 40 seconds faster (in a track where lap time is 1.30) than our 'average Joe' but when they'd try with Fiat Punto, Schumi would be only 15 seconds faster.
Even thoug 'Joe' got his lap times closer to Schumi's times with Punto, I don't think Punto is the 'driver's car'?
996 GT2 is more 'driver's car' than 996,
993 GT2 is more 'driver's car than 993,
930 is more 'driver's car' than 911 etc. etc...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Another great point of view. What is interesting is that it appears that for many the definition of a Drivers Car appears to be a car that requires more involvement to get 110% out of it, but that rewards more once the driver has got passed the initial stages of learning the car (ie: the marginal utility is greater on such a car).
In that respect, I guess it would always be much harder to get the additional gains out of the newer generation Porsche's given they have such excellent driver aids (and assuming that the aids are always left on).
One issue that does come to mind relating to these newer cars is that someone new to high performance cars without much performance car driving experience, upon getting into a car with fantastic driving aids such as PSM might be lulled into a false sense of security when driving these cars near or at the limit. Without learning the basics of the car without the PSM might be dangerous given that they are used to relying on these aids. Something like not learning basic arithmetic, but learning to use a calculator...if the calculator were to break down this would be problematic for the person that never learnt the basics of arithmetic. Likewise, if the PSM were to fail, one wonders what might happen to a driver that never learnt how to drive without the driving assistance (of say PSM).
More food for thought...
<strong>Driver's car is (how I've 'learned' it):
A car that demands more, but once you master it, gives more.
For example, mediacore driver could be only 1 second down from great driver's lap times in a car that's been built 'for everyone'.
Where as great driver in more demanding car (= driver's car) would be 3 seconds faster than mediocre driver in that car.
For example formula 1 car (especially before all the driver aids they have nowadays) will be the fastes car in the world around the race track, but only in good hands. Where as mediocre driver couldn't get two corner without spinning, or if they could, their lap times would be 20 seconds slower.
If you'd take Schumi & 'average Joe' to the track with two cars; Ferrari's 2000 model F1 & Fiat Punto.
Schumi propably would be about 40 seconds faster (in a track where lap time is 1.30) than our 'average Joe' but when they'd try with Fiat Punto, Schumi would be only 15 seconds faster.
Even thoug 'Joe' got his lap times closer to Schumi's times with Punto, I don't think Punto is the 'driver's car'?
996 GT2 is more 'driver's car' than 996,
993 GT2 is more 'driver's car than 993,
930 is more 'driver's car' than 911 etc. etc...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Another great point of view. What is interesting is that it appears that for many the definition of a Drivers Car appears to be a car that requires more involvement to get 110% out of it, but that rewards more once the driver has got passed the initial stages of learning the car (ie: the marginal utility is greater on such a car).
In that respect, I guess it would always be much harder to get the additional gains out of the newer generation Porsche's given they have such excellent driver aids (and assuming that the aids are always left on).
One issue that does come to mind relating to these newer cars is that someone new to high performance cars without much performance car driving experience, upon getting into a car with fantastic driving aids such as PSM might be lulled into a false sense of security when driving these cars near or at the limit. Without learning the basics of the car without the PSM might be dangerous given that they are used to relying on these aids. Something like not learning basic arithmetic, but learning to use a calculator...if the calculator were to break down this would be problematic for the person that never learnt the basics of arithmetic. Likewise, if the PSM were to fail, one wonders what might happen to a driver that never learnt how to drive without the driving assistance (of say PSM).
More food for thought...