Then I stand corrected - In my region, I did know that the Certified DE instructors were pulling double duty as AX instructors, but I didn't think there were Certified AX Instructors.

 

Thanks Brian! Despite some of the cynicism associated with private organizations and the associated belief that no one is there willing to help, I have found that the national folks are pretty easy to get along with (maybe it's due to my proximity). Maybe the suggestion of inclusion of an Autocross section in Panorama will show PCA leadership that there is interest in a National program with higher visibility/coordination.

 

That's because there aren't any.

PCA National does not presently have a national AX instructor program similar to the licensed DE instructor program. Many regions, including my own (Tom and I are in the same region), previously required that only licensed DE instructors could instruct at AX. This was another case of "we assumed that this was a national rule". It was not, and led to some interesting peculiarities like SCCA National Champs, or semi-pro racers with Daytona 24 hours experience being unable to instruct at our parking lot autocross events.

Once we asked the right questions of the right people at national, we learned that we could develop our AX instructors program, which we did. That may change with the establishment of a National AX chair an AX advisory committee, but today, any region may develop their own AX instructors program. Having a DE Instructor's license is not required.

 

We were fortunate in that we are an AX-centric region, and our last and current Zone Reps were/are region members who are avid autocrossers. They knew who to ask at National to get the correct answers.

 

NER Porsche region requires that to be considered for an autocross instructor you must have won your division. Not many DE instructors at our events though. Kinda funny when an advanced DE driver shows up at an autocross for the first time. Some vow never to return.

 

Leeds will be working on establishing national autocross standards. These will not be classes or groupings, but rather focused on safety. Parade classes are for Parade. Regions are more than welcome to use or modify them for regional use. IMHO, they are not outdated. Classes are reviewed every year. We have a dedicated PCR (Parade Competition Rules) committee that meets and discusses rules and classes throughout the year. However, in the end, it's up the regions to create the classes.

Each region determines who is considered an autocross instructor. What we don't want to see is joyrides or worst than than, minors who aren't part of the JPP program, being given rides at autocrosses.

PCA insurance is vastly different than SCCA. Our insurance cover the entire club. From socials to club racing. Same insurance. PCA Regions that host autocrosses do not pay for autocross insurance. National absorbs that cost.

btw, there is no such things as 'certified' DE Instructors in PCA. We have a list of National Instructors who have passed the National DE Instructor training course. Certified may not seem like a big deal, but with lawyers it does. It assumes that there is a re-certification process in a timed period. Which there is not.

fwiw, I've been autocrossing since I joined PCA in 1989. I've also done more than 90 PCA Club Races. Some similarities, some differences, same adrenalin level. Doing both makes you a better overall driver.

 

Manny,

Thanks for the clarification on the word "Certified". I bet I am not the only one that has used that incorrectly in the context of DE Instruction.

Brian

 

Brian, Manny, et all, interesting discussions. I'm glad Leeds will have a national chair.

More tomorrow about points based classification systems that more accurately reflect the value of modifications and result in accurate and transparent classing rules. Here's one for starters: http://classification.pca-ggr.org/cl.../web/index.php

My goal is to grow AX not only in my home region but on the national level.

 

As the region Motorsport chair I select our autos instructors. While I want skilled drivers I more importantly want mature thinkers who can instruct without intimidating new drivers. Additionally I developed and held an auto X training day last year which was very successful.

 

Hey Scott:

We have used a point system for car classification in the BMWCCA for many years, and it works pretty well. The major advantage seems to be improved competition with a larger number of cars in each class. Even with a relatively small 30-40 car entry field, the classes can be grouped where there are usually at least 3 cars in each class.

From what I have seen in BMWCCA, the points system tends to favor older modified cars who have been able to fix things like negaitve camber limitations. The medium size region PCA Parade rules that you are using now looks like it should do a pretty good job of grouping cars into fewer classes.

 

The challenge to grow auto crossing isn't a class system but finding lots, especially affordable ones. When I started in 1989 lots were plentiful and cheap. Not lot owners are concerned about liability and don't want to rent out.

Getting people hooked on the sport is easy. It's fun regardless of what car you are driving.

 

And some unlucky regions don't have any suitable lots within a 3 hour drive, regardless of how friendly the owners would be. Sucks to be us. :-)

BGL

 

It's frustrating- there are at least 6 fantastic autocross sites within 30 minutes drive, but we can't use them because people insist on landing planes, unloading ships, or just parking on them instead. What a waste. Especially the one marine terminal which has been completely idle and vacant yet we can't use because of DoHS security regulations.

At least the Navy's letting us use the hovercraft base again. I love ACU4!

 

I'm encouraged to see PCA national elevating autocross to the same executive level as DE and Club Racing. Now I hope Leeds will open the conversation on classing rules to better take into consideration three issues:
1) No stock classes for pre-1990 vehicles. Very discouraging for a stock Carrera/944/ etc to show up and be competing against a maxed out production category car. What is the rational for this? I'm sure there is one; if anybody knows, please chime in.
2) The flexibility and exactness a points based system such as used by various regions and one whole zone to classify cars for Autocross and Time Trials. I'd encourage anyone interested to go to either here: http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/Default.aspx or the website in my earlier post at Golden Gate Region and classify there car. Study the thinking, math, and rational behind the two systems and see what you think.
A poster mentioned our medium region class sizes looked good. The points based system in use at GGR results in the same number of classes, just grouped by actual POTENTIAL performance based on incremental modifications. I posit it is a much more elegant and fair system then the current PCR's.
3) OK, now I'm holding my breath as I hit "post quick reply": why does Autocross have a ladies division? It further bifurcates an already fragmented system (hey Brian, remember the "everybody get's a trophy" handouts at the casino?)? DE and Club Racing don't segregate by sex. I don't think Rally or Concourse does, either. SCCA? Nope. NASA? Nope. There is no reason on this planet a woman cannot out drive a man.
So, am I a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, or a progressive new age male? Ladies, chime in.
Other issues: we've had a precipitous drop off in AX participation the last year and a half. Through 2012, it wasn't unusual to have 50 to 60 cars. Last year the max we got was 43. We're advertising at car shows, on the net, across the zone, nationally, running car control clinics and autocross schools, cross breeding with the SCCA and BMW's, etc. Our parking lot is large (Atlanta Motor Speedway) and easy to get to, although it is 30 minutes south of mid-town.
Anybody else seeing the same phenomena? Partially to blame is the plethora of competing events for our attention, partly I think it's geographic/demographic; (our DE events fill up immediately). Ideas?
Thanks
Scott

 

OK Scott, I tried it and came up with my 986S Boxster classified as either:

A- CC09 at 608 pts if I run my Dunlop ZII's in my current 255 / 285 combo.
B - Still CC09 if I mount up my NT01's
C - CC08 at 598 pts if I drop the front size to a 245 (probably very little if any performance change)
D- CC10 with 688 pts if I mount up my A6's

I don't have any frame of reference here, so what does your car classify as in this system? I know we both classify as I02M under current Peachstate rules.

I do like the fact that there is some graduated system based on the tire type, so you don't necessarily have to fool with tire changes to be competitive.

To some of your other points:
DE's fill up very quickly if at Road Atlanta, but our event at AMP has been open for over a week, and only 26 have entered. Personally I had rather run AMP, but there are a lot of GT3 / turbo guys who like the long straights at Road Atlanta so they don't have to get their egos hurt too much by us small fry.

Along those lines, a lot of the guys I have talked to at DE events really look down their nose at auto-x. I tried to talk several into coming out to auto-x before, but you could tell it was a losing battle. Personally, I think that completing at least one season of auto-x should be a pre-requisite for signing up at any track event.

In our area, SCCA auto-x registrations run very high (like over 100 cars per event - too much!), while PCA and BMWCCA are both suffering, and only survive by getting the few SCCA guys with insatiable auto-x appetites to turn out. Perhaps the PCA and BMWCCA groups should get closer together...

Hey, if it doesn't rain this Sunday, please bring my shoes.

Thanks,

Paul