Jim Michaels

Six minutes to run an AX course? That's even slower than I thought.

Then a 1-3 hour wait for your next run? Most events used to run that way years ago (in numerical order usually), but I think most now break the whole field down into several run groups to greatly reduce waiting time between runs.

Our SCCA region usually has 4 run groups, with all cars in the same class in the same run group. Each run group usually has 18-20 cars called to the staging area at the same time. Thus, we complete all our runs (usually 4) with only an 18-20 car wait between runs. We work the course for one other run group, and have free time while the remaining 2 groups run.

And you can't quit now that we've put so much time in on this thread.

bavarian06

Lol, its about 80 seconds per lap, 4x per session. And you are correct, there are total of 4 run groups, 4 different sessions essentially.

But if you think about it, 80 seconds x 4(tries/session) x 4 sessions = about 22mins worth of actual driving (rest of the 9hr day is spent waiting and corner working). I'm used to driving for 20mins at a time (gives you a real feel of the track) x 4 sessions = 80mins.

I appreciate the help though Jim!

racer

I certainly understand that.. and AX is VERY different than just DEing.

I think of AX as "qualifying". You have 3-4 runs to

1) Learn course
2) Make quick, appreciable adjustments in car set up
3) Go fast
4) Win.

To do this all in "6 minutes" is remarkable. You come to appreciate that winning can come down to hundredths or thousands of a second and that the "I was only 2 seconds behind x's time..." blah blah.. 2 seconds is an eternity in this sport.

It HAS to be an adrenaline rush.

DE - lets see.. drive the same course, lap after lap, year after year.. not too challenging in the overall scheme. Thats why, most DE'ers eventually want to RACE wheel to wheel.. to force themselves to learn how to drive better/faster/ closer to others etc.

Mussl Kar

Like others have said, optimum autox setup is really not safe for the street or the track. I took mine down the runways after everybody cleared out, to blow the rain drops off before putting in the trailer. At less than 90 the car felt like I was going for a land speed record. Every microscopic movement in the pavement twiched the car side to side.
Autocross is as much a social event as it is a competition event. You also have to pay your dues, as in corner working. Working corners is an oportunity to watch how the better drivers set up their turns. Watch their brake lights as they continue past you. Good drivers will break with a very quick tap in the right spots, not so good drivers with longer light times, often where they need no braking. Attend the autocross schools for serious seat time too. Instructors ride with you a few times and then take the wheel. We are very gentle with 1st gear and ease into 2nd. Then we drive your car as fast as we can and not change gears. Yesterday after my runs (took first in IP and also FTD) there was an ex 911 friend with a Lotus Exciege and I took an instructor drive with him. He was turning consistant dirty 80 second runs when I rode with him in the AM. My first time in that car and I ran an easy 73 clean. His next run was 75+2 but he "got it". He finished the day in the 73s but dirty.
If you stick with autocross long enough and make every event you will get better quickly. At some point you may get "promoted" to some other work assignment. Not too bad to get an assignment in the tent. My first time off of corners was as announcer. That is sure a good work assignment on a hot day when timing goes bonkers. Done my share of corner time when that happened.

bavarian06

AX is a race against the clock, like time trial, no other variables really. For people who race, qualifying in a good position is different from what happens come race day. It’s an entirely differently beast when you hound your opponent until he finally lets you pass. Racers know how to break late, take defensive lines, setup for a pass by taking the outside line to only pass on the inside on the next turn (all missing in AX). I feel that offers a greater adrenaline rush.

I can see how a good AX will have no problem setting an excellent time on a big track, but I’m not sure how they will fair if its open wheel-to-wheel racing (which I’m working my way to). I still prefer the "pt to pass" for now (I really don’t trust other drivers in the event they want to dive for a corner or refuse to admit they are slower).

It's unlikely I can get my car to be setup for both types of events. But apparently Ken Block's car can:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/25/k...d-fiesta-hfhv/

Jim Michaels

Yeah, I know the AX/DE math; the seat time math, the financial math, and the total time per event math. I've been tracking for almost 25 years, but AXing even longer.

A lot of PCA trackers apparently feel the same way that you do about AXing though. There are 15 from my PCA region registered for a DE this month, but only two of us AX regularly (with SCCA because our PCA region doesn't hold AXs). Both of us started AXing first, and that may partly explain why we keep doing both.

I won't add much to what "racer" said, except that I know what it's like to finish tied in AX class to the one-thousandth of a second. That happened the very first time I ran my "new" 911 RS America in ASP.

Auto-X-er

Ok, so based on that toe out up front perhaps isn't that helpful. That can always be a preference thing if you like an aggressive turn-in feel. The toe out sensitivity has never really bothered me. Is a front to rear differential of just .1° too aggressive for track and street? I run .2° differential in my MX5, thought that a 911 would at least want that for an all around setup.

I would guess from you comments and what others have had perhaps an additional -1 camber to the rear of whatever can be got out of the front would be good?



I'm guessing at least your front springs are too stiff to not push all day. From the little I have driven it getting the weight transfer forward and then smoothly going into the turn is the best way to get it around. Camber will always help, but you need to get the weight transfer forward to really get the most out of initial turn in.

If you had independent adjustments pumping rear compression is a great way to get a car to rotate, but it is inherently unstable.


AX is a great environment to work on driver skills without having to spend lots of money and go far away and at a national level those drivers are extremely good.

utkinpol

Very good response. Scruffy knows what he talks about.

All in all AX gives any new driver an opportnity to learn something he cannot learn during DEs or anywhere else actually - how to control a car close to where it looses grip completely, how to use power slide, power steering, front steering braking, etc. you cannot learn those things so easily on a track where it is generally not allowed and quite dangerous to spin out. It is even more dangerous to spin on a track if you have no idea how to sense when car is about to loose it and how to get it back safely rathe than do 'both feet in' and pray for your luck.

As of 'getting better quickly' - i would say you get kinda better then it takes looong time to get really good. My schedule this year totally messed up my AX fun but i go to NHMS or Lime Rock couple times a month and I got to say, good performance driving has many aspects. DEs teach smoothness and precision, you start paying more attention to road itself than to cones or other distractions and it help to start 'sensing' proper arch around a corner when you can do 15-20 laps in a given session.

I don`t know, i always wanted to try it all. AX, track, would be great to learn to rally too, if we had such venues. club racing, why not. it all has its own differencies.

in my mind core difference between track and AX setup is that at AX you want to improve initial turn-in more then mid-corner traction, on a track it is more of an opposite goal as turn-in can be somewhat compromised or worked out with trailbraking but then you need to get max possible mid-corner and exit speed. driving 10/10 on track is way more dangerous than at AX. I do not think I want to risk my car at DE doing things I can do at AX. any slippage from car ahead of you at 80+ mph ina corner is no fun when you go close to 10/10 traction.
still, it`s all fun.

as of setup questions - not sure why it was advocated to get sway bars close to full stiff. i would vote for opposite - front full soft, rear has to be adjusted for optimal power steering feel. front camber depends of springs and tires. my camber is -3 front -2.5 rear. works OK.

bavarian06

Both are inherently fun but I just prefer track days more. Like I mentioned before, I believe my setup is just too stiff. There is barely any give or suspension travel with 5” springs. For example, my outer front wheel will literally lift off from the ground as I drive up driveways (when I angle the car up).

I think this is why I have a hard time with quick transitions - left/right/left . The last event I attended had two slalom sections where I struggled to get through quickly. My car does great in chicanes but just not slaloms. The lines I have to take are different due to this as well. When people are pivoting around cones (upside down V), I have to make a sweeping N (if that makes any sense).

AX definitely teaches car control. I never had to adjust for understeer to oversteer and back so many times in an event (talk about tank slappers). This was also the first time I ever spun my car too (couldn’t get the car turned in fast enough to line up the gates and finally washed out when I forced it).
Maybe I should have an AX veteran drive my car and see how it fairs before I rule it out completely.

Auto-X-er

A stiffer suspension will help weight transfer happen way quicker, which can be good or bad depending on whats happening. I think you probably upset the balance a little with those spring rates, but aggressive front camber would probably help. As far as slalom thats probably just normal. Its just a feature that tends that the rear engine makes very difficult. AutoX is definitely good training. A wet autox will teach you more about car control than a track day and a good driver driving your car will teach you how slow you are.

As far as the compromise setup I searched around and found this. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...endations.html
Those actually seem like decent recommendations then and I guess the stock toe differential between front and rear is actually not that much.

utkinpol

i would try to drop shocks setting all the way low and set sway bars to softest setting or disconnected front bar completely having rear at softest, with such springs you may not need it at AX.

cannon1000

I like the autocross even though driving time is low. The car is upset most of the time and is always at or over the edge of traction..."feeling" this and how to correct it are invaluable when running on a real track at much higher speeds.