997 S stock class tires
08-10-2010, 12:30 PM
#16
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Carter,
excessive wear in rear axle in like almost 90% of cases is caused by either excessive or wrong toe settings.
it is a known problem for 997 cars - C2 an C2S, i do not think GT3 surfers from that - if you do hit your rear hard enough, or if you go via corners hard enough - those toe arms bushings (or heck knows what else) slides out and toe setting changes. after that you start getting a heck load of weird stuff - very first sign of a problem is always uneven tire wear on different sides.
i got my car used with 39K miles on it, previous owner was not a sport inclined guy - so, car was 'maintained' at dealer only an apparently for its whole life it was NEVER aligned properly, toe settings were off by .8 in rear! it was just crazy.
there is no 'autocross' setup as we speak if you are not swapping out suspension parts, you are very limited there. it is a generic slipping slope - to get as much camber as you can with as 'less' toe as you can.
problem here is - when you go to 0 toe in front your car`s behavior changes dramatically - it jumps into corner perfectly, but on straights you can forget how it was when you could take your hands off steering wheel - you will hav no more stability there. so speak to mechanic, if you just occasionally do auto-x you may keep some amount of toe in front, like 0.02 or 0.05.
by default it may be like 0.4 or 0.8. who knows.
unless you started swapping parts in your suspension and using r-comp tires - you are in pure stock class. alignment numbers do not matter, it is still stock. car with alignment i told you about will feel crazy fast after what you are used to, i can promise that. for me it was like a 3 step enlightenment - first to align it properly in stock form, then get GT3 LCA arms so i went to -2.4 front, -1.9 rear camber , and now - new shocks, monoball arms, etc. a lot of people tel me it was way premature for my level to rebuild suspension and they are probably right but heck, it feels so great.
as scruffy noted - it is a very slippery and expensive slope, for me it ended up with $12K new suspension. which I do not regret any single bit at all, it is all fun. but for beginning - do not change anything there, at least for an year, just do this alignment i told you about. bill phister at eurotech framingham, 3 grant st, is an excellent mechanic, use his services, he is expensive but knows his stuff 100%. EPE is great shop when jerry pelegrino works on cars himself i guess, i had alignment done there initially but when it was time to do next changes bill showed me his measurements and they were way off from what i ha done a EPE - i do not know why, but i would recommend to chose one shop and work with it all the time as it helps to go to same place all the time.
i use bill and do not regret it. a lot of folks go to jerry an do not regret it. EPE is a bit more 'upscale' place, perhaps.
thanks, paul.
excessive wear in rear axle in like almost 90% of cases is caused by either excessive or wrong toe settings.
it is a known problem for 997 cars - C2 an C2S, i do not think GT3 surfers from that - if you do hit your rear hard enough, or if you go via corners hard enough - those toe arms bushings (or heck knows what else) slides out and toe setting changes. after that you start getting a heck load of weird stuff - very first sign of a problem is always uneven tire wear on different sides.
i got my car used with 39K miles on it, previous owner was not a sport inclined guy - so, car was 'maintained' at dealer only an apparently for its whole life it was NEVER aligned properly, toe settings were off by .8 in rear! it was just crazy.
there is no 'autocross' setup as we speak if you are not swapping out suspension parts, you are very limited there. it is a generic slipping slope - to get as much camber as you can with as 'less' toe as you can.
problem here is - when you go to 0 toe in front your car`s behavior changes dramatically - it jumps into corner perfectly, but on straights you can forget how it was when you could take your hands off steering wheel - you will hav no more stability there. so speak to mechanic, if you just occasionally do auto-x you may keep some amount of toe in front, like 0.02 or 0.05.
by default it may be like 0.4 or 0.8. who knows.
unless you started swapping parts in your suspension and using r-comp tires - you are in pure stock class. alignment numbers do not matter, it is still stock. car with alignment i told you about will feel crazy fast after what you are used to, i can promise that. for me it was like a 3 step enlightenment - first to align it properly in stock form, then get GT3 LCA arms so i went to -2.4 front, -1.9 rear camber , and now - new shocks, monoball arms, etc. a lot of people tel me it was way premature for my level to rebuild suspension and they are probably right but heck, it feels so great.
as scruffy noted - it is a very slippery and expensive slope, for me it ended up with $12K new suspension. which I do not regret any single bit at all, it is all fun. but for beginning - do not change anything there, at least for an year, just do this alignment i told you about. bill phister at eurotech framingham, 3 grant st, is an excellent mechanic, use his services, he is expensive but knows his stuff 100%. EPE is great shop when jerry pelegrino works on cars himself i guess, i had alignment done there initially but when it was time to do next changes bill showed me his measurements and they were way off from what i ha done a EPE - i do not know why, but i would recommend to chose one shop and work with it all the time as it helps to go to same place all the time.
i use bill and do not regret it. a lot of folks go to jerry an do not regret it. EPE is a bit more 'upscale' place, perhaps.
thanks, paul.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! I don't quite have the budget to through 12k at a suspension upgrade so i think i will be hanging out in the stock class for a while
. Maybe the toe links you mentioned at somepoint to assist with propert tire wear etc. I sent Bill an email with your suggestion and compliments of his work so I will probably go through him.
I work in Shrewsbury so its not that far from me.
08-10-2010, 12:39 PM
#17
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! I don't quite have the budget to through 12k at a suspension upgrade so i think i will be hanging out in the stock class for a while. Maybe the toe links you mentioned at somepoint to assist with propert tire wear etc. I sent Bill an email with your suggestion and compliments of his work so I will probably go through him. I work in Shrewsbury so its not that far from me.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions! I don't quite have the budget to through 12k at a suspension upgrade so i think i will be hanging out in the stock class for a while
. Maybe the toe links you mentioned at somepoint to assist with propert tire wear etc. I sent Bill an email with your suggestion and compliments of his work so I will probably go through him. I work in Shrewsbury so its not that far from me. toe arms are OK, you can ask his opinion on this kit below - just tell him you would prefer to stay stock for now, and if staying stock - what can be done to improve rear toe settings stability. if he says adjustable toe arms do work best - then may be it is worth doing to some degree, but i would not rush with any of this as it will take long time to start drivig car to the level where corner forces will start altering you alignment setup. as of potholes - well, no one is safe from that.
yes, here is the link. it says 996-993, but i think it is same for 997 cars too. toe arms are in $500 area - this one is $85.
http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-...t01-detail.htm
08-10-2010, 02:28 PM
#18
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You may also want to check Parade competition rules as to what class you will be in. Showroom Stock allows nothing at all, not even the links. Problem with going into a higher class is that to compete you need to do almost everything allowed.
08-10-2010, 03:10 PM
#19
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08-10-2010, 03:36 PM
#20
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Here are the rules below.. Hard to tell if the $85 lock plates are allowed or not. I dont think the ywould be considered performance enhancement since they dont change anything on the factory setup. I think it would be in the same category as taking a factory tire and shaving it down.. Any thoughts? I just want to save my tires from getting smoked and not having to get an alignment every week.
A-2.5.4. SHOWROOM STOCK MODIFICATIONS
Unless otherwise specified in these rules, no alterations or modifications are allowed to these automobiles. Only original equipment manufacturer (OEM) wheels as originally specified and OEM tire sizes as originally specified for each specific model year are permitted. All Showroom Stock class tires must have a tread wear rating of 140 or greater. Wear and tear items, excluding tires, must be comparable in construction and specifications to the originally supplied factory components. Adjustments are permitted provided no modifications and/or alterations are necessary to achieve the desired adjustment. Automobiles must run with their spare tire, jack, lug wrench, owner’s manual(s), tools, etc. Owner’s manual(s) will be used to help verify questionable equipment options and designated wheel/tire sizes. No aftermarket equipment that might be reasonably perceived as performance affecting is permitted in these classes. Items included in this restriction include, but may not be limited to, aftermarket air filters, aftermarket exhaust systems, aerodynamic aids, computer chips, five/six point seatbelts, race seats, harness bars, roll bars, roll cages, etc.
A-2.5.4. SHOWROOM STOCK MODIFICATIONS
Unless otherwise specified in these rules, no alterations or modifications are allowed to these automobiles. Only original equipment manufacturer (OEM) wheels as originally specified and OEM tire sizes as originally specified for each specific model year are permitted. All Showroom Stock class tires must have a tread wear rating of 140 or greater. Wear and tear items, excluding tires, must be comparable in construction and specifications to the originally supplied factory components. Adjustments are permitted provided no modifications and/or alterations are necessary to achieve the desired adjustment. Automobiles must run with their spare tire, jack, lug wrench, owner’s manual(s), tools, etc. Owner’s manual(s) will be used to help verify questionable equipment options and designated wheel/tire sizes. No aftermarket equipment that might be reasonably perceived as performance affecting is permitted in these classes. Items included in this restriction include, but may not be limited to, aftermarket air filters, aftermarket exhaust systems, aerodynamic aids, computer chips, five/six point seatbelts, race seats, harness bars, roll bars, roll cages, etc.
08-10-2010, 03:48 PM
#21
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from practical perspective adjustable rear toe links are needed if you want to go with more than -1.9 degrees of camber in rear axle keeping toe at 0.10 - stock toe links become a limitation at this level. But you are not going to go nearly that far at all. for -1.5 rear camber all stock parts you have do work just fine.
check with Bill about those cheap lock plates, if he says right away it is garbage - just do the alignment alone and do not worry about anything else yet.
08-10-2010, 04:14 PM
#22
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It all starts with
IF THE RULES DO NOT SPECIFICALLY PERMIT A MODIFICATION, IT IS NOT ALLOWED. And it is written in all caps too.
And I ran the fastest single clean run of the day, and took the last slalom the wrong way the whole day.
Ollie is still a stinking fast driver.
IF THE RULES DO NOT SPECIFICALLY PERMIT A MODIFICATION, IT IS NOT ALLOWED. And it is written in all caps too.
And I ran the fastest single clean run of the day, and took the last slalom the wrong way the whole day.
Ollie is still a stinking fast driver.
08-10-2010, 04:17 PM
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THANKS PAUL!! Now to figure out what I'm going to do with my two sets of rims.. I only have 2 good front PS2's at this point.. and i refuse to pay $500each for new rear PS2's... I am a cheap porsche owner what can i say..
08-10-2010, 04:35 PM
#24
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potenza re11 was kinda praised on forums but recently one member got it and was very discouraged, so, i cannot give any street tires advices really, i do not know this topic well enough myself.
only typical advice is to get rid of 19" rims and go to 18" as smaller tires are cheaper.
08-10-2010, 04:52 PM
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HI Paul,
I dont plan to mix but I will probably buy a used set off of ebay with like 80% life for under $500 vs new at $500 each and run those until the fronts and rears are gone together.
I have a set of 19" winter tires that came with the car with good tread so maybe i will throw those on my 19" "track" rims and sell them over the winter and get some factory 18's for the track. Do you know which OEM wheel would keep me in stock class maybe the 18" classics? Here i go again with the questions!
Thanks,
Chris
I dont plan to mix but I will probably buy a used set off of ebay with like 80% life for under $500 vs new at $500 each and run those until the fronts and rears are gone together.
I have a set of 19" winter tires that came with the car with good tread so maybe i will throw those on my 19" "track" rims and sell them over the winter and get some factory 18's for the track. Do you know which OEM wheel would keep me in stock class maybe the 18" classics? Here i go again with the questions!
Thanks,
Chris
08-10-2010, 05:17 PM
#26
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i really hate to pretend to be who i am not - i do not know ultimate answers to anything. scruffy knows 10 times more than i do but he does not give too many advices no matter how i tease him, did you notice?
if your car is 997 than stock 18" rims/tires are
front 235/40 ZR 18 (91Y) 8 J x 18 H2 57 mm 58.5 in./1486 mm
rear 265/40 ZR 18 (101Y) XL 10 J x 18 H2 58 mm 60.4 in./1534 mm
i would have to re-read rules myself to know how stock class works for different rims.
cheapest effective option for 18" rims is to get 18" OZ allegeritas from tirerack, 8.5" wide fronts, 11" wide rear. you will run 235/295 or 245/305 rubber on them.
i run on CCW C14 18", 9" wide front 12" wide rear rims with currently extreme silly 265/335 rubber as i got it for peanuts on sale, will change that to 255/315 next season most likely.
if you do already have 2 sets of rims - i would just keep using them. if they are both 19" - so, they are 19". look up in internet for tires reviews, etc, it is very liquid thing and changes frequently.
Now let`s look at scruffy again - he goes in 60 sec around the course and his nearest competition is within 2-3 sec. right? i am not even there, i am 4-5 sec behind usually.
if you go around the course and you are like 20sec+ behind him as i was in my first season all season long - it is not about tires, alignment, etc. Still i think alignment shoul be done to allow you to feel car better, BUT - it all depends of what is the priority at any given moment. with 20sec behind tires are not the priority, goals should be set really clear here.
so i would get new PS2s for street driving only on your best looking rims ans set that aside for street only but on other set would simply get cheapest available tires from this list below and would be burning them down with no regrets until time will come to move to 18" rims with r-comp tires.
http://www.racingtireguide.com/autoc...eet-tires.html
scruffy knows 10 times more than i do but he does not give too many advices no matter how i tease him, did you notice? if your car is 997 than stock 18" rims/tires are
front 235/40 ZR 18 (91Y) 8 J x 18 H2 57 mm 58.5 in./1486 mm
rear 265/40 ZR 18 (101Y) XL 10 J x 18 H2 58 mm 60.4 in./1534 mm
i would have to re-read rules myself to know how stock class works for different rims.
cheapest effective option for 18" rims is to get 18" OZ allegeritas from tirerack, 8.5" wide fronts, 11" wide rear. you will run 235/295 or 245/305 rubber on them.
i run on CCW C14 18", 9" wide front 12" wide rear rims with currently extreme silly 265/335 rubber as i got it for peanuts on sale, will change that to 255/315 next season most likely.
if you do already have 2 sets of rims - i would just keep using them. if they are both 19" - so, they are 19". look up in internet for tires reviews, etc, it is very liquid thing and changes frequently.
Now let`s look at scruffy again
- he goes in 60 sec around the course and his nearest competition is within 2-3 sec. right? i am not even there, i am 4-5 sec behind usually. if you go around the course and you are like 20sec+ behind him as i was in my first season all season long - it is not about tires, alignment, etc. Still i think alignment shoul be done to allow you to feel car better, BUT - it all depends of what is the priority at any given moment. with 20sec behind tires are not the priority, goals should be set really clear here.
so i would get new PS2s for street driving only on your best looking rims ans set that aside for street only but on other set would simply get cheapest available tires from this list below and would be burning them down with no regrets until time will come to move to 18" rims with r-comp tires.
http://www.racingtireguide.com/autoc...eet-tires.html
08-10-2010, 05:39 PM
#27
What do you mean you took the last slalom wrong? I just want to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong. I posted my video in the autocross video thread for reference.
08-10-2010, 05:53 PM
#28
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I went in the hard way because I designed the course so that the hard way would be fastest. It was not. Silly self needs to try the options like everybody else. Being a course designer has no real advantage over the other drivers. You get pre concieved ideas in your head in the design stage and mess up at the event. Like my first 2 designs where I went OC on my first runs.
08-10-2010, 05:55 PM
#29
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Paul,
Great advice! I don't plan to keep up with scruffy anytime soon. This weekend I think he was at a little over 60 seconds and i can't remember if that was clean or not. My best time was 74 seconds clean. My time at the last event that you were at was something like 79-80 seconds. I never got a chance to say hi!! I have been trying to work on overall control and smoothness rather then flat out speed. Not making up excuses but like i always say you gotta learn how to walk before you learn how to run.
Anyway my priority isn't really to go there and try to beat other drivers (nevermind Scruffy or Oly! lol) but just go have fun and improve my driving skills over time in a cost effective way. It would be nice to have a solid vehicle that I can cost effictively race against equal cars of equal performance to measure my improvement.
I will take your advice and hold on to both sets of 19's for now and have my front PS2's put on my nice wheels with a almost new set of rear PS2's.
For the track I can get a set of Hankook's for $800 shipped or probably a full set of better used tires with 6/32 rears 8/32 fronts on ebay for around $500 or so. decisions decisions
Of course I will the car realigned from Bill ASAP!!
Thanks again!
Carter
Great advice! I don't plan to keep up with scruffy anytime soon. This weekend I think he was at a little over 60 seconds and i can't remember if that was clean or not. My best time was 74 seconds clean. My time at the last event that you were at was something like 79-80 seconds. I never got a chance to say hi!! I have been trying to work on overall control and smoothness rather then flat out speed. Not making up excuses but like i always say you gotta learn how to walk before you learn how to run.
Anyway my priority isn't really to go there and try to beat other drivers (nevermind Scruffy or Oly! lol) but just go have fun and improve my driving skills over time in a cost effective way. It would be nice to have a solid vehicle that I can cost effictively race against equal cars of equal performance to measure my improvement.
I will take your advice and hold on to both sets of 19's for now and have my front PS2's put on my nice wheels with a almost new set of rear PS2's.
For the track I can get a set of Hankook's for $800 shipped or probably a full set of better used tires with 6/32 rears 8/32 fronts on ebay for around $500 or so. decisions decisions
Of course I will the car realigned from Bill ASAP!!
Thanks again!
Carter
08-10-2010, 05:56 PM
#30
I went in the hard way because I designed the course so that the hard way would be fastest. It was not. Silly self needs to try the options like everybody else. Being a course designer has no real advantage over the other drivers. You get pre concieved ideas in your head in the design stage and mess up at the event. Like my first 2 designs where I went OC on my first runs.