What class am I?
05-05-2009, 12:55 AM
#1
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What class am I?
I'm running in an Autocross event in a couple weeks and I'm having trouble figuring out what class I'm in.
I have a stock 944 turbo (B stock) but the previous owner installed drilled rotors in the front and I think that bumps me out of the stock category.
I have a stock 944 turbo (B stock) but the previous owner installed drilled rotors in the front and I think that bumps me out of the stock category.
05-06-2009, 10:42 PM
#4
Drifting
There is an allowance for aftermarket repair parts in the SCCA stock rules, so long as they don't offer a performance advantage. If it's an otherwise 1:1 replacement with performance comparable to OEM, I think that's still allowed in BS. If it's a local event, they probably won't care, regardless.
...Unless you beat the club president by a couple thousandths, that is, then expect a class bump
05-07-2009, 03:03 AM
#5
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I'm running in the Tidewater Sports Car Club's monthly autocross. They follow SCCA rules. I'm running as a Novice so I'm pretty sure I won't beat the club's president.
05-07-2009, 06:53 PM
#6
It's really poor form for a local guy to complain about a minor mod like that.
If your not winning, no one cares.
If your beating them by 2 seconds do you really think they are going to protest a minor mod like that?
Now beating them by a few thousanths consistantly....then maybe you should swap to stock rotors.
EDIT: Just for refrence. I ran the entire "winter series" of my rookie year with 16" wheels when 14" were stock (AS MR2 Turbo at the time). I was on street tires, every one else was on race rubber. No one was about to complain about the rule violation until it really started to matter to them. Have fun!!
If your not winning, no one cares.
If your beating them by 2 seconds do you really think they are going to protest a minor mod like that?
Now beating them by a few thousanths consistantly....then maybe you should swap to stock rotors.
EDIT: Just for refrence. I ran the entire "winter series" of my rookie year with 16" wheels when 14" were stock (AS MR2 Turbo at the time). I was on street tires, every one else was on race rubber. No one was about to complain about the rule violation until it really started to matter to them. Have fun!!
05-07-2009, 07:18 PM
#7
Drifting
Heh, didn't notice your location, I'm in TSCC too! (Silver Boxster S, #103.) I'm pretty sure nobody will care, especially if you're running novice class this year 
I just double-checked the exact working of the rules, and you can use alternate brake rotors legally per section 13 of the SCCA rules provided they're essentially identical to the standard parts, are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. Drilled rotors provide no performance benefit to autocross, and you can use any pads you want, so unless the rotors or calipers are different in some other substantial way, your car belongs in BS. Ultimately, you are responsible for determining your own class, and it's only in the event somebody protests that the club will get involved. I can't guarantee you that nobody will protest, but I can't see anyone protesting, especially something so insignificant, we're just not that kind of club.
I'll probably be working afternoon tech next Sunday; I'll try to keep an eye out for you and say hi. I see you registered as ASP, that's the right attitude! I think you're being too hard on yourself, but I'm glad to see you're serious about sticking strictly to the rules. Ask when you drive up to tech, we can take a look and help see if they're the sort of brakes that are OK in BS or not. Not that it matters what class you run in as a novice, but the PAX between BS and ASP is pretty significant, and the novice class can actually be rather competitive. If you've got any other questions about TSCC or ACU4, ask away
Speaking of which- make sure you're on the base access list!
You can also ask at http://www.autocross.us/ where all the local guys hang out online. Or at http://www.tidewatersportscarclub.com/ as they check those forums, too.
Be honest, you're not worried about this, are you? What you're REALLY looking for is an excuse to turn your 944 into a maxed-out ASP car, right??
I just double-checked the exact working of the rules, and you can use alternate brake rotors legally per section 13 of the SCCA rules provided they're essentially identical to the standard parts, are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. Drilled rotors provide no performance benefit to autocross, and you can use any pads you want, so unless the rotors or calipers are different in some other substantial way, your car belongs in BS. Ultimately, you are responsible for determining your own class, and it's only in the event somebody protests that the club will get involved. I can't guarantee you that nobody will protest, but I can't see anyone protesting, especially something so insignificant, we're just not that kind of club. I'll probably be working afternoon tech next Sunday; I'll try to keep an eye out for you and say hi. I see you registered as ASP, that's the right attitude! I think you're being too hard on yourself, but I'm glad to see you're serious about sticking strictly to the rules. Ask when you drive up to tech, we can take a look and help see if they're the sort of brakes that are OK in BS or not. Not that it matters what class you run in as a novice, but the PAX between BS and ASP is pretty significant, and the novice class can actually be rather competitive. If you've got any other questions about TSCC or ACU4, ask away
Speaking of which- make sure you're on the base access list!
13. STOCK CATEGORY
...
Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. The allowance for use of such replacements does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion sets, nor does it authorize the use of piston rings having different configurations (e.g. “Total Seal”) from those of the original.
...
13.6 BRAKES
A. The make and material of brake linings may be changed.
B. Substitution of clutch and brake hydraulic lines with solid metal or braided metal is allowed on all cars manufactured before model year 1992.
C. Alternate brake bleeder fittings such as “Speedbleeders” are permitted. They may serve no other purpose.
...
Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit. The allowance for use of such replacements does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion sets, nor does it authorize the use of piston rings having different configurations (e.g. “Total Seal”) from those of the original.
...
13.6 BRAKES
A. The make and material of brake linings may be changed.
B. Substitution of clutch and brake hydraulic lines with solid metal or braided metal is allowed on all cars manufactured before model year 1992.
C. Alternate brake bleeder fittings such as “Speedbleeders” are permitted. They may serve no other purpose.
Be honest, you're not worried about this, are you? What you're REALLY looking for is an excuse to turn your 944 into a maxed-out ASP car, right??
Last edited by sjfehr; 05-07-2009 at 07:39 PM.
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05-08-2009, 02:11 AM
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Happily I have base stickers so the access list isn't an issue. I've been to the last two events at ACU4 and it looks like alot of fun. I just got my last two major issues taken care of so I can finaly participate.
I'm not that worried, and yes I've been reading the rules and planning out what I'll need for a good ASP car.
Since you're working Tech I've been wondering how big of an oil leak will disqualify me? I've got a drip from an oil cooler line every couple miles. I can get it fixed before the event but I'm really stretching my budget as it is.
I'm not that worried, and yes I've been reading the rules and planning out what I'll need for a good ASP car.
Since you're working Tech I've been wondering how big of an oil leak will disqualify me? I've got a drip from an oil cooler line every couple miles. I can get it fixed before the event but I'm really stretching my budget as it is.
05-08-2009, 08:27 AM
#9
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Hey there.
Actually, drilled or slotted rotors aren't legal on our cars for BS...
However, doubt anyone would care.
...slight oil leak is alright as long as it doesn't drip alot on the surface.
Actually, drilled or slotted rotors aren't legal on our cars for BS...
However, doubt anyone would care.
...slight oil leak is alright as long as it doesn't drip alot on the surface.
05-08-2009, 11:12 AM
#10
Drifting
Why is that, Marc, safety? Or is there some advantage to cooling? I have OEM drilled rotors on my AS Boxster S; I can't imagine Porsche would have done that without some valid reason, but in discussions online, I gathered the impression that the only thing drilled rotors are good for is cracking...
Matt, 1 small drip every couple of miles is *probably* OK. Puddle under your car when you pull off from tech is definitely not. If we see a drip or find anything else questionable in the tech inspection, the tech chief (Aaron Crowder for the afternoon) will make a judgement call- need to make sure your car is safe to drive, and the course is safe and free from oil and coolant. One thing's for sure, you're certainly not the first Porsche to weep a bit of oil
I like to get on the base access list even though I have stickers, too, because I really don't want to get to the gate and realize I left my CAC card at home... Actually did that once, but was able to use my driver's license.
Matt, 1 small drip every couple of miles is *probably* OK. Puddle under your car when you pull off from tech is definitely not. If we see a drip or find anything else questionable in the tech inspection, the tech chief (Aaron Crowder for the afternoon) will make a judgement call- need to make sure your car is safe to drive, and the course is safe and free from oil and coolant. One thing's for sure, you're certainly not the first Porsche to weep a bit of oil
I like to get on the base access list even though I have stickers, too, because I really don't want to get to the gate and realize I left my CAC card at home... Actually did that once, but was able to use my driver's license.
05-08-2009, 04:57 PM
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Drilled rotors might be lighter and therefore offer a performance advantage. As I said before they are technically illegal but in practice they probably are not enough of an advantage to matter, especially in novice class.
The reason for the rule is to stop someone from using significantly different rotors that might offer a real performance advantage, not so much in braking performance as in weight. Remember the rotor is unsprung weight and a reduction in unsprung weight (even as little as 1/2 pound per corner) can make a significant handling improvement. For example carbon rotors which are outrageously lighter and offer a significant advantage. Or a rotor with an aluminium hat will be lighter and not transfer as much heat to the wheels from the rotors.
The reason for the rule is to stop someone from using significantly different rotors that might offer a real performance advantage, not so much in braking performance as in weight. Remember the rotor is unsprung weight and a reduction in unsprung weight (even as little as 1/2 pound per corner) can make a significant handling improvement. For example carbon rotors which are outrageously lighter and offer a significant advantage. Or a rotor with an aluminium hat will be lighter and not transfer as much heat to the wheels from the rotors.
