Have any of you guys attended one of their schools? What did you think?

I'd like to improve my autocross skills and am looking for some good instruction and a bunch of seat time. From reading the description of their programs that is what it looks like you get for a pretty reasonable price (because you're driving your car).

http://autocross.com/evolution/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=4"

I'd appreciate any input on their school.

 

Grumble, grumble..... I took their intro course and to start with their instructor drives your car around the course showing you how to drive your car. The POS butthead redlined my car!!!! I wanted to beat the crap out of him.

Besides that incident, I thought it was a bit overpriced compared to some local schools. We have some really talented drivers in town who are willing to teach. If you don't have some great talent available locally, then Evo would be a good thing.

I'm probably a bit jaded because of that butthead so don't let my negativity put you off.

Cheers,

 

I have never taken their class but one of their instructors (Tom Kotzian) regularly comes to our AX's (to thump us in his Z06 'Vette - SCCA SS Champ). I have always found his advice and demeanor most excellent and I would be inclined to take the school thinking that he is representative of their style.

 

It's great stuff...I took Phase II with Dave Newman and Pat Salerno a few years ago, and they did a great job. It definitely changed the way I autocross.

 

The nearest one to me is about 160 miles away, it's also mid week.
Both of these are understandable, but it gets pricey. Including incidentals I figure it would cost me well over a grand.....that's a new set of tires..not to mention that it would almost trash the set on the car....and I'd have to put in another seat/harnesses. I'll just have to fumble along on my own. The guys I know that had taken the course loved it.

Took your car to redline, eh? Wow....how long did he ride the limiter?

 

I did Phase I and II when it was the Mackamey AX School.

IMHO, it is the best money you will ever spend if you are serious about AX.

BGL

 

I attended the first two phases of Evo school. I'd already been autocrossing for 20 years, so was too set in my ways to learn much. The two points they kept emphasizing were to look far, far ahead, and to be more patient in the slow 360s. Some of the less experienced drivers from my region were significantly quicker after Evo school.

I had two instructors; both drove my car (a RSA) more carefully and slower than I did. One (the 914 owner) claimed that there was something drastically wrong with the handling of the car, while the other (the 911 owner) said that it handled great.

 

I don't know if you're joking or serious, but if you're serious, I suggest that you reconsider if autocross is for you. Any time you're trying to get the most out of your car, you're going to find yourself running to redline or beyond. Porsches are very capable of doing so without harm.

If you're joking, next time you might want to add some smileys to show you're being sarcastic.

 

I'm serious.

Couple things:

Due to size constraints, this was a puny training course. Puny. Tiny. 1st gear kinda thing. The only good thing was he hit the redline in 1st gear where there isn't much load on the engine.

This run was just to show you where to look as you're driving around. He was saying where he was looking as he was driving. You don't need to redline the car to show you where to look. He could've done that lap in my pickup truck.

In case you weren't aware, the GT3 has a very expensive engine. $50,000 to replace last time I checked (no, not a typo). I don't need some idiot instructor redlining my car. That's for me to do when I feel I have to. The computer in the car keeps track of how long you are bouncing off the revlimiter and if there ever was a potential warranty claim, the dealer will look at those numbers. If they see you spend a lot of time hitting the revlimiter then they can deny the warranty claim.

Should I be autocrossing this car? Definitely. Do I need to redline it? Definitely not. I can (and have) shifted a couple hundred rpm below the redline from 1st to 2nd and I'll never hit the redline in 2nd at a Solo 2 event (~80mph - very tall gearing).

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I contend that shifting at redline isn't going to hurt any motor that wasn't already going to let go. When I instruct at autocrosses, I drive my students' cars hard to show them what their cars are capable of (not 100%, but hard enough so that I'm using all of the revs), and when I'm being instructed, I expect the same. I further contend that shifting a couple of hundred rpm below the redline isn't going to make any substantial difference in engine longevity.

Here's an exercise for you to try, albeit not in your car based on your statements above: get in a car, accelerate normally through first, then shift into second. Floor the gas, and watch as the tach needle rises to redline. Don't lift. Keep accelerating until the engine stops accelerating and starts making a "popping" noise, like at the 57 second mark in this video. That's the rev limiter, and it's the limit that really matters. Redline's just the rpm point where the actuaries calculate that, if exceeded regularly over the lifetime of the car, warranty claims would exceed the allocated budget. Touching or exceeding it briefly on occasion does no substantive harm to the engine. The rev limiter is where the engineers think it's really not a great idea to go higher, although many people inadvertently exceed even the limiter (on botched downshifts) without harm. The rev limiter's generally 500 to 800 rpm higher than redline.

There was a post on the S2000 boards by a guy who thought that it was appropriate to do all of his highway driving in VTEC (6000 - 9000 rpm) because he'd read that that's where the S2000 motor works best. His engine did eventually let go, but not until he'd driven 50000 miles like that.

There's an oft-stated piece of advice that applies to autocross, track days, and road racing: never run a car that you can't afford to walk away from. You can afford a number of fantastic autocross cars for a fraction of the cost of your GT3's engine, and at least speaking for myself, I'd have a lot more fun wringing a cheap car out than I'd have babying a Porsche. But again, perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Nice video.
FTD...?
That's great!
Autocross is not for everyone.
I agree that sometimes you need to hit the rev-limiter, but honestly the car is not accelerating anymore, so it's not always faster.
Should not hurt the car/engine, but I wouldn't do it to another's anyway.
Evolution has been around along time and has always seemed cool.
Heck, we autocross with some of them.
Maybe in the future just let them know how you feel about your GT3 or not let them drive.
Remember, this stuff is just for fun.

 

That's fine....but the only opinion that really matters is that of the dealer if an engine problem showed up. They won't care what any customer thinks, all they'll listen to is their chief tech and the PCNA rep. Doing anything to the car that may negatively affect the warranty is something the owner of the car should be doing, not some instructor on a navigational lap on an autox course.

I agree that taking it to 8000rpm or alternatively, bouncing off the 8200rpm rev limiter isn't much different as far as the motor is concerned. It's just the computer keeping track of the 8200 hits that can make a dealer give you a hard time with a warranty claim that bugs me.

BTW, I expressed my concerns after he hit the revlimiter and he apologized and didn't do it again. I just wasn't expecting someone to do that since the dozen instructors I had before (autox and track) never did that. They were all a bit apprehensive about driving the car in the first place and took it easy with the engine. Cornering hard, sure. One of my instructors spun my car because of the touchy alignment I had at the time. That was fine because the dealer can't tell how many times I've spun.

Re: don't drive it if you can't walk away: I agree with that. However, the key thing here is to let *me* break my car, not some instructor.

Cheers,

 

Thanks to everyone for their input. The rev limiter/redline discussion that has arisen is an amusing/interesting/informative sidelining of my original question.

I think based on what I've read here and elsewhere a couple of days with this school probably will help me get better for a reasonable amount of money.

By the way, here's my two cents worth on the red line issue: Anytime someone drives my car I either know how they're going to drive it because I know them or I ask questions and/or set limits. I shift at redline when I autocross. The engine is designed to be driven this way. When I bought my car I asked for a runout of the number of times the rev limiter had been hit and had a discussion with a very experienced Porsche tech about it. As common sense would tell you the number of times the limiter is hit that should be acceptable depends on the miles/hours on the engine. Also, you can tell from the runout whether the limiter is hit briefly (as in an upshift) or dramatically as in a missed downshift.

I think that the reason there is a redline is that that is the level that you're not expected to cross in driving the car with prudence. For a sports car, made to be driven hard, shifting at or near redline is something that it is designed for and shouldn't be a concern. I think there are a lot more Porsche's, 911's especially, whose engines suffer more from being lugged around than by being driven hard.

I'll expect my instructors to drive my car in the manner that they want to see me drive it, which is at its limits. If I don't drive it that way, how can I expect to run with the lowest possible time (given my driving, tires and all the other variables).

Thanks again for all the input on the school.

Tony

 

I can't recall ever looking at a gauge while autocrossing. Now days I don't ever have a tach.....just temp, oil pressure (for the lanes & after the finish), & a shift light that I seldom notice. If I have to ride the limiter (set at 7100) for 60-100 feet to avoid shifting, so be it. When up shifting is required, I'll pick a spot to short shift
(by ear) to get it over with. Most SCCA events keep the speeds down to 60ish mph
& I can do more in 2nd. I will use a 7300 or 7500 pill for the limiter, but haven't found it necessary.....yet.

When your head is up & you're looking ahead gauges are more hindrance than help.

 

Since I never answered your original question -- none of Evolution's courses are aimed at raw newbies (not saying you're one, just pointing that out). The Evo guys would disagree, but I think Phase 1's best for relatively inexperienced drivers (midpack locally, lower half nationally). I think anyone would benefit from the Phase 2 and above classes, as their courses resemble national-level courses, and the instructors are almost all Nationals podium-level guys.

The prices are a bit steep, but that's offset by the fact that you get a ton of runs -- tire heat management becomes a big deal, actually.