What class am I for SCCA Autocrosses?
02-28-2008, 05:20 PM
#31
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It appears that Porsche is only excluded from STS. There is nothing that I have found in the SCCA rules that excludes Porsche from the higher Street Touring categories. If anyone can find something that specifically states that all Porsches are excluded from STS2, STX or STU, please explain!!! I'm making critical decisions on my car setup and purchasing components based on this, so I want to get it straight first! Thanks...
It starts with this blurb in the Street Touring Category:
"A sports car based vehicle would include those that are 2+2 variants
of 2 seat sports cars. As a guideline, eligible cars would typically
come from the D, F, G or H-Stock classes. Note that 3.2 ‘VEHICLE
CLASSIFICATION’, also applies to the Street Touring Category,
including adding or removing cars from the exclusion lists.
Vehicle eligibility lists are now in Appendix A."
...then this:
"STS2 follows the STS rule set, but the eligible cars will be restricted
to two-seaters with engine displacements of 1.9 liters or less. This
class includes a number of popular vehicles, including the Honda
CRX and del Sol, Mazda Rx-7 (non-turbo, ‘79-’92) and Miata (‘90-
’97), Toyota MR2 (‘85-’89), as well as other similar vehicles. STS
category rules 14.1 to 14.10 apply. Further, as in STS, only original
equipment viscous limited-slip differentials are legal in STS2. Excluded
vehicles include Lotus (all), Mazda Miata (‘99+), and Toyota
MR2 (‘91-’95 and ‘00+)."
...then this:
"The STX class expands the vehicle eligibility limits beyond those
specified for STS, and adds a limited number of allowed modifications.
The allowances are as follows:"
...then this:
"STU follows the STX rule set, but raises the displacement limit for
otherwise STX-legal vehicles to 3.1 liters for forced induction and to
unlimited dsplacement for natural aspiration."
*******
You'll see a trend as you read through the rules. The ST category has classes within it. It starts with STS and then goes from there.
The appendix in the rules for the elegible cars for STS says this:
"Excluded:
All sports cars, sports car based
models, examples include:
- Porsche (all)"
When you look at the entry lists for Topeka, you won't see any Porsches in the ST category of classes. They aren't allowed.
Sorry.
02-29-2008, 09:03 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Allan -
Thanks, I can see where you're coming from, but I think the way the rules are written makes it very confusing. For instance, the ST rules state that sports-car based vehicles are not allowed. However, in STS2, STX, and STU, they allow vehicles such as Miata, RX-7, RX-8, Supra, Camaro, and M3. I think the confusion lies in the fact that they lay out a very broad and highly restrictive rule in the base class (STS), and then systematically remove restrictions in the higher level ST classes to allow more and more sports-car based and higher perfromance vehicles. Also, notice that in STX, they specically state that E36 M3 is excluded, but then in STU, they state that it is allowed.
I guess my main question is, do you believe that a Miata, an RX-7, or a Supra are not considered sports-car based vehicles?
Also, just because no Porsches were registered in ST classes in Topeka, doesn't mean that they aren't allowed.
Thanks, I can see where you're coming from, but I think the way the rules are written makes it very confusing. For instance, the ST rules state that sports-car based vehicles are not allowed. However, in STS2, STX, and STU, they allow vehicles such as Miata, RX-7, RX-8, Supra, Camaro, and M3. I think the confusion lies in the fact that they lay out a very broad and highly restrictive rule in the base class (STS), and then systematically remove restrictions in the higher level ST classes to allow more and more sports-car based and higher perfromance vehicles. Also, notice that in STX, they specically state that E36 M3 is excluded, but then in STU, they state that it is allowed.
I guess my main question is, do you believe that a Miata, an RX-7, or a Supra are not considered sports-car based vehicles?
Also, just because no Porsches were registered in ST classes in Topeka, doesn't mean that they aren't allowed.
Porsches aren't allowed in the ST category.
It starts with this blurb in the Street Touring Category:
"A sports car based vehicle would include those that are 2+2 variants
of 2 seat sports cars. As a guideline, eligible cars would typically
come from the D, F, G or H-Stock classes. Note that 3.2 ‘VEHICLE
CLASSIFICATION’, also applies to the Street Touring Category,
including adding or removing cars from the exclusion lists.
Vehicle eligibility lists are now in Appendix A."
...then this:
"STS2 follows the STS rule set, but the eligible cars will be restricted
to two-seaters with engine displacements of 1.9 liters or less. This
class includes a number of popular vehicles, including the Honda
CRX and del Sol, Mazda Rx-7 (non-turbo, ‘79-’92) and Miata (‘90-
’97), Toyota MR2 (‘85-’89), as well as other similar vehicles. STS
category rules 14.1 to 14.10 apply. Further, as in STS, only original
equipment viscous limited-slip differentials are legal in STS2. Excluded
vehicles include Lotus (all), Mazda Miata (‘99+), and Toyota
MR2 (‘91-’95 and ‘00+)."
...then this:
"The STX class expands the vehicle eligibility limits beyond those
specified for STS, and adds a limited number of allowed modifications.
The allowances are as follows:"
...then this:
"STU follows the STX rule set, but raises the displacement limit for
otherwise STX-legal vehicles to 3.1 liters for forced induction and to
unlimited dsplacement for natural aspiration."
*******
You'll see a trend as you read through the rules. The ST category has classes within it. It starts with STS and then goes from there.
The appendix in the rules for the elegible cars for STS says this:
"Excluded:
All sports cars, sports car based
models, examples include:
- Porsche (all)"
When you look at the entry lists for Topeka, you won't see any Porsches in the ST category of classes. They aren't allowed.
Sorry.
It starts with this blurb in the Street Touring Category:
"A sports car based vehicle would include those that are 2+2 variants
of 2 seat sports cars. As a guideline, eligible cars would typically
come from the D, F, G or H-Stock classes. Note that 3.2 ‘VEHICLE
CLASSIFICATION’, also applies to the Street Touring Category,
including adding or removing cars from the exclusion lists.
Vehicle eligibility lists are now in Appendix A."
...then this:
"STS2 follows the STS rule set, but the eligible cars will be restricted
to two-seaters with engine displacements of 1.9 liters or less. This
class includes a number of popular vehicles, including the Honda
CRX and del Sol, Mazda Rx-7 (non-turbo, ‘79-’92) and Miata (‘90-
’97), Toyota MR2 (‘85-’89), as well as other similar vehicles. STS
category rules 14.1 to 14.10 apply. Further, as in STS, only original
equipment viscous limited-slip differentials are legal in STS2. Excluded
vehicles include Lotus (all), Mazda Miata (‘99+), and Toyota
MR2 (‘91-’95 and ‘00+)."
...then this:
"The STX class expands the vehicle eligibility limits beyond those
specified for STS, and adds a limited number of allowed modifications.
The allowances are as follows:"
...then this:
"STU follows the STX rule set, but raises the displacement limit for
otherwise STX-legal vehicles to 3.1 liters for forced induction and to
unlimited dsplacement for natural aspiration."
*******
You'll see a trend as you read through the rules. The ST category has classes within it. It starts with STS and then goes from there.
The appendix in the rules for the elegible cars for STS says this:
"Excluded:
All sports cars, sports car based
models, examples include:
- Porsche (all)"
When you look at the entry lists for Topeka, you won't see any Porsches in the ST category of classes. They aren't allowed.
Sorry.
02-29-2008, 12:57 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Seems to me that the 914 1.7 & 1.8s would be allowed in STS2, which is for NA sports cars up to 1900 cc. One wouldn't expect to see many (any?) at Nationals because they probably wouldn't be very competitive.
I don't see a way to fit a 951 into any ST class. If the sports car exclusion doesn't get you, the displacement restriction will.
I don't see a way to fit a 951 into any ST class. If the sports car exclusion doesn't get you, the displacement restriction will.
02-29-2008, 01:38 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Seems to me that the 914 1.7 & 1.8s would be allowed in STS2, which is for NA sports cars up to 1900 cc. One wouldn't expect to see many (any?) at Nationals because they probably wouldn't be very competitive.
I don't see a way to fit a 951 into any ST class. If the sports car exclusion doesn't get you, the displacement restriction will.
I don't see a way to fit a 951 into any ST class. If the sports car exclusion doesn't get you, the displacement restriction will.
Read further... STU allows forced induction engines up to 3.1 liters (or unlimited displacement for naturally aspirated).
02-29-2008, 01:42 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
I sent the following email to the SCCA Manager, Solo Events to ask if 944 turbos are allowed in STU...
There is a currently a debate on rennlist.com (Porsche owners’ forum) in regards to whether or not a 1986 Porsche 944 Turbo is allowed to compete in Street Touring U (STU). Some of us think that no Porsches are allowed in any Street Touring class because there is a general statement in the Street Touring summary section that no sports-car based vehicles are allowed, and also there is a statement in the STS section that all Porsches are excluded. However, the other side argues that there are other sports-car based vehicles allowed in STS2, STX, and STU, including Miata, RX-7, and Supra. Also, since the Porsche exclusion statement only appears in the STS section, perhaps Porsches are allowed in STS2, STX, or STU if they meet all other criteria? In regard to the 1986 944 Turbo, it is a 2+2 with 4 seats and 4 seatbelts, has a turbocharged 2.5 L engine, and rear wheel drive.
A number of folks are basing decisions on car setup and purchasing parts based on these classifications… it would greatly help if you could set the record straight for us!
Thanks,
A number of folks are basing decisions on car setup and purchasing parts based on these classifications… it would greatly help if you could set the record straight for us!
Thanks,
02-29-2008, 02:23 PM
#37
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Good luck!
Remember though that the SCCA rulebook tends to follow this thought:
"If it isn't explicitly stated that you are allowed to do something, then you are not allowed to do it."
The 951 isn't explicitly allowed into the ST category so by default, it isn't allowed.
The book can be very confusing at times though. I know your pain.
Cheers,
Remember though that the SCCA rulebook tends to follow this thought:
"If it isn't explicitly stated that you are allowed to do something, then you are not allowed to do it."
The 951 isn't explicitly allowed into the ST category so by default, it isn't allowed.
The book can be very confusing at times though. I know your pain.
Cheers,
03-01-2008, 09:48 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
03-01-2008, 09:50 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
03-01-2008, 12:32 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Yes, I consider the Miata, RX-7, and Supra to be sports cars.
While an engine displacement restriction seems very clear, what constitutes a "sports car" or "sports car based model", and even what constitutes "two seats", is less clear. One could claim that a 911 is a coupe because it has 4 seats. I trust that these questions have been sorted out at the national level, but what is allowed where at the local level may vary. Thus, you could ask for an interpretation from the local group you plan to run with, and their decision will stand, at least until someone else challenges it.
I have some empathy for anyone trying to be SCCA competitive in a 944/951. I started in BS in a '84 944. Where I finished depended on how many BS Corvettes showed up. The 944 was moved down to DS where I got beat by a GTI 16-valve and a Honda Si coupe. The 944 then moved up to CS where I got beat by a 914 2-liter. All that getting beat, and the NA 944 was still quicker than the few 951s that ran then. Have you considered running a 911? It worked for me.
While an engine displacement restriction seems very clear, what constitutes a "sports car" or "sports car based model", and even what constitutes "two seats", is less clear. One could claim that a 911 is a coupe because it has 4 seats. I trust that these questions have been sorted out at the national level, but what is allowed where at the local level may vary. Thus, you could ask for an interpretation from the local group you plan to run with, and their decision will stand, at least until someone else challenges it.
I have some empathy for anyone trying to be SCCA competitive in a 944/951. I started in BS in a '84 944. Where I finished depended on how many BS Corvettes showed up. The 944 was moved down to DS where I got beat by a GTI 16-valve and a Honda Si coupe. The 944 then moved up to CS where I got beat by a 914 2-liter. All that getting beat, and the NA 944 was still quicker than the few 951s that ran then. Have you considered running a 911? It worked for me.
03-01-2008, 01:42 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Yes, I consider the Miata, RX-7, and Supra to be sports cars.
While an engine displacement restriction seems very clear, what constitutes a "sports car" or "sports car based model", and even what constitutes "two seats", is less clear. One could claim that a 911 is a coupe because it has 4 seats. I trust that these questions have been sorted out at the national level, but what is allowed where at the local level may vary. Thus, you could ask for an interpretation from the local group you plan to run with, and their decision will stand, at least until someone else challenges it.
I have some empathy for anyone trying to be SCCA competitive in a 944/951. I started in BS in a '84 944. Where I finished depended on how many BS Corvettes showed up. The 944 was moved down to DS where I got beat by a GTI 16-valve and a Honda Si coupe. The 944 then moved up to CS where I got beat by a 914 2-liter. All that getting beat, and the NA 944 was still quicker than the few 951s that ran then. Have you considered running a 911? It worked for me.
While an engine displacement restriction seems very clear, what constitutes a "sports car" or "sports car based model", and even what constitutes "two seats", is less clear. One could claim that a 911 is a coupe because it has 4 seats. I trust that these questions have been sorted out at the national level, but what is allowed where at the local level may vary. Thus, you could ask for an interpretation from the local group you plan to run with, and their decision will stand, at least until someone else challenges it.
I have some empathy for anyone trying to be SCCA competitive in a 944/951. I started in BS in a '84 944. Where I finished depended on how many BS Corvettes showed up. The 944 was moved down to DS where I got beat by a GTI 16-valve and a Honda Si coupe. The 944 then moved up to CS where I got beat by a 914 2-liter. All that getting beat, and the NA 944 was still quicker than the few 951s that ran then. Have you considered running a 911? It worked for me.
Nah, I'm stubborn. I like 911's, but I love my 951. Not to say I wouldn't consider switching at some point, but I'm going to keep plugging along for now...
03-01-2008, 03:04 PM
#43
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vt951, I was about to tell you to get in touch with the SCCA office and I just read that you did it so I hope we'll get the definitive answer ! But I still believe they don't want the "real" sports cars like the Porsche's, Corvette's, Ferrari's etc. in Street Touring...
They allow japanese "sports cars" like the Miata, RX-7, Supra and the MR2 but I think this is because THEY REALIZE the popularity of tuning and as we all know these are the japanese cars.....
As for a BMW M3, even if it's fast it's still a coupe, like the Camaro, so it still fits with the global idea of Street Touring....
They allow japanese "sports cars" like the Miata, RX-7, Supra and the MR2 but I think this is because THEY REALIZE the popularity of tuning and as we all know these are the japanese cars.....
As for a BMW M3, even if it's fast it's still a coupe, like the Camaro, so it still fits with the global idea of Street Touring....
03-01-2008, 04:11 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
Porsches have traditionally received less than favorable classing in SCCA ranks. For example, how do you think a 911SC stock would fare against a 350Z in BS? Or a Cayman S against a Z06 Vette or Lotus Elise in SS? They don't do too well, the lone exception right now being the 996 GT3 in SS, which is doing extremely well. (I would like to see a properly set up and driven base Cayman in AS, though...I think that is a terrific car.)
The 951 is definately not legal in the ST classes. STS2 was designed almost specifically for the Miata. The Miata is one one of the most well-represented cars in SCCA, so it does get some considerations. It also has only 114-128 (I think) HP in the NA models (up to 99) that are eligible for STS2. STS2 does not allow turbo Miatas or anything like that.
Don't think for a second that our Porsches are "real" sports cars and Miatas and the like are not. They are about as pure of a sports car as they come, and with minimal amounts of mods to the motor (turbo and intercooler for less than $6,000), it will blow a 951 off the map. They are far better autocross cars overall than most Porsches. (Did I just say that?
)
The 951 is definately not legal in the ST classes. STS2 was designed almost specifically for the Miata. The Miata is one one of the most well-represented cars in SCCA, so it does get some considerations. It also has only 114-128 (I think) HP in the NA models (up to 99) that are eligible for STS2. STS2 does not allow turbo Miatas or anything like that.
Don't think for a second that our Porsches are "real" sports cars and Miatas and the like are not. They are about as pure of a sports car as they come, and with minimal amounts of mods to the motor (turbo and intercooler for less than $6,000), it will blow a 951 off the map. They are far better autocross cars overall than most Porsches. (Did I just say that?
)
03-01-2008, 05:17 PM
#45
Race Director
Good luck!
Remember though that the SCCA rulebook tends to follow this thought:
"If it isn't explicitly stated that you are allowed to do something, then you are not allowed to do it."
The 951 isn't explicitly allowed into the ST category so by default, it isn't allowed.
The book can be very confusing at times though. I know your pain.
Cheers,
Remember though that the SCCA rulebook tends to follow this thought:
"If it isn't explicitly stated that you are allowed to do something, then you are not allowed to do it."
The 951 isn't explicitly allowed into the ST category so by default, it isn't allowed.
The book can be very confusing at times though. I know your pain.
Cheers,
don't hold your breath
\Wayne