Jim Michaels

I didn't forget that, John, but BSs also finished 42nd, 56th, 57th, and 59th in AS. Yes, I had to go back and look up that part. Thus, 8th and 9th are very good finishes for BSs in AS, and likely reflects significantly greater than average driver skill. I still would not consider the Boxsters and Caymans the cars to drive in SS and AS if one's goal is to win Nationals.

For those who don't know, John finished 9th in AS.

JohnVitamvas

I think if you ask Dave or I whether we think we drove well at nats, the answer would be "not really." If a top-tier driver drove my car, I believe it could have had a top-five finish easily. Probably not "the car to have," you're right.

That said, I think the base Cayman is actually a better car than mine if you're good at downshifting to first! It seems to be much more stiffly sprung than my car (probably because of the stiffer chassis) and it has wider front wheels.

PedalFaster

But top drivers are what should be used to judge a car's capabilities -- a crappy driver (or a crappy drive) introduces much variables that are much larger than the differences between cars.

Great -- one bad drive all year and now I'm known as the guy who came in 57th at Nationals...

Jim Michaels

Is that you, Steven? If so, we didn't know that until you outed yourself. Also if so, you're slighting yourself. You finished 56th; not 57th.

I understand your point, but when driver potential and car potential are confounded, it's difficult to determine who the best drivers are, and what the best cars are, independent of the driver-car combination. What should we conclude from the fact that three of the top four finishers in AS drove Honda S2000s? I think it's safe to conclude that the S2000 is a car that one can win in. It's not going to make an average driver a champion, but at least the S2000 driver can't claim that he was handicapped by his car choice.

A Solstice GXP finished second in AS this year (with a few others down the line), so I guess there will be more of those in AS next year. At the SCCA run-offs last week Solstice GXPs took the top three spots in T2. I expect even more GXPs to run in T2 next season, even with the weight handicap that SCCA is very likely to impose.

JohnVitamvas

The S2000 has, historically, been far more favorably classed than the Boxster S. When the S2000 was still in B Stock, the 986S was stuck in Super Stock! Since then the S2000 moved up and the 986S moved down... to the same class.

Had the Boxster S been more favorably classed, it's likely more people would have campaigned them and more people would have found ways to be fast in them. This year was a bit of an anomaly, I don't really see a whole lot more people picking up old Boxsters for national competition. It's not the best at Pros, and it's not the best in Topeka.

But I still think it can win.

Jim Michaels

I agree with your classing analysis.

According to the SCCA National Solo Rules book Appendix J, Porsches were once quite competitive in AS. Thanks to the driving of Paul Dickinson (911T) and John Fergus (911S), Porsches took AS at Nationals from 1973 through 1979. Over a span of 18 years (1973 to 1990), Porsche drivers (including two 914 drivers) took 13 AS championships (Lotus Elan drivers took the other five). Front engine Porsches (944 and 968) took AS from 1997 through 1999, and Andrew McKee won in a Boxster in 2001.

I may not be close enough to see clearly what's happening in recent SCCA classifying, but factors other than a car's potential may be carrying more weight now in determining classification than it used to. The classification principle of "the greatest opportunity to be competitive for the greatest number" may be hurting Boxster and Cayman drivers' chances to be competitive.

PedalFaster

Sadly yes, although it's spelled Stephen.

For the record, I also agree that the Boxster isn't the best car, but I do think it's one of at least six cars that could get it done in A Stock. The "problem" with the Boxster is that each of the other cars has some defining characteristic that will allow it to run away and hide from the rest of the class on certain types of courses, whereas the Boxster is a jack of all trades, master of none.

orcadigital

I think its pretty equal parts personal opinion, driving skill, and budget. It will also depend as many have said, what organization you run in, as the classes tend to be slanted all different ways, and what might dominate in SCCA wouldnt stand a chance in PCA, etc.

First, decide on your budget, which will be the most limiting factor on choosing a car. Then learn to drive it. Skill will determine your times more then the car will.

Just my thoughts. I have a 914, and while i can navigate an AutoX course, i am hardly good at it. I have seen similar or even poorer setup 914's, just wreck me at autocrosses. Skill has a lot to do with it, in my opinion, more then the car.

Grant

knfeparty

E Stock, baby. The Fordahls (I spelled right?) are my heroes.

Though pricey, the "stock" options on the 944 are straight up cheater. 2.7? yep. LSD? check? coil-overs, stiffer springs, koni adjustables, and big sway bars? quadruple check.

You have a whole extra liter on the miatas.

Jim Michaels

knfeparty: You're right about that 944 being a "straight up cheater" in E Stock. Only OEM springs are allowed in stock classes.

When I first autocrossed a 944 it was in BS, and where I finished depended on how many Vettes showed up. After the Vettes were moved, Jeff Reitmeir won BS nationals in a 944 in '95 and '96, but then the Miatas and S2000s moved in. The 944 was moved to DS, then to CS, then to ES. FS may be next.

BTW, I started SCCA autocrossing in Durham NC in 1970. Ran a Datsun 510 sedan and a Austin Mini Cooper 1275S.

FotoVeloce

Yeap. Spelled it right. Jody was the president or our local sports car club for the last two years. She's quite a driver. She was campaigning a Boxter S for a while but went to the 944, which seems to be been the right move.

Yeah. All that stuff puts you a prepared class for Miata.. and stock, the Miata, although light, is not even close to competitive IMHO. I ran one the 2005 year as a Novice and took 2nd in the overall points. I lost to a Subi of all cars -- in our novice it's run what-cha-brung. Brutal when a Miata has to face cars like 300+ HP Subis and Corvettes.

Once I get my 993 re-sorted it's going to Fordahl Motorsports for some final TLC.

Leeds Gulick

The Fordahl 944 is a stock 1984 with no sunroof. It was purchased new by Greg's dad with Greg overseeing the option choices. Greg now has the 944 and his dad drives a Boxster.

Greg and Jodi's 944 has the performance suspension and wheel options available from the factory at the time (pre-M030), Koni shocks, factory limited slip, Hoosier A6 tires and an SCCA stock-allowed adjustable front sway bar. This car is too exposed to scrutiny, and Greg and Jodi too successful and well know, to be running the modifications mentioned above in an earlier post.

I trophied in E Stock at SCCA Nationals in this car in 2006 and Jodi won the women's class, beating all the men's class times on the second day (Nationals runs on two courses over two days for each class with half the classes on Tuesday-Wednesday and half on Thursday-Friday). This year Jodi trophied in E Stock in the open (men's) class while Greg and I drove the Fordahl Motorsports 914/6 in F Prepared (car is for sale). Greg and Jodi have each won 3 SCCA championships in the 914/6 as well as others in other cars. In the 914 we had problems with the on and off rain on the first day but Greg set the fastest time by 0.6 seconds on the second day, moving up to 2nd.

The Fordahl's 944 is the best balanced car I've ever driven and great fun to autocross. I've been autocrossing since 1981 (914, 914/6, 911SC, 928S, 911 RS America, 993, 993 Turbo, 996, Boxster, Boxster S) and trophied 5 of 9 trips to SCCA Nationals. I driven these and others (935, 956, Formula Ford, Formula Mazda, shifter kart) for a total of between 30,000 and 40,000 miles on race tracks here and in Europe (mostly DE with some racing schools and a little racing). The 944 has significantly less power than many of these cars, but the balance, including under braking and acceleration, more than make up for it for me. Having lots of power is useful and fun (I'm building a 3.8 liter Boxster with a goal of 400 hp, 2450 lbs on 10" and 12" wheels) but I value balance over power more than most people, probably because of many years of autocrossing.

Leeds Gulick

FotoVeloce

Thanks for the info Leeds, that's a great rundown of the FM 944.

Hopefully I can run in the 2008 season. My skills are not up to the demands of the 993 but it will always be fun for me, even if I'm mid to lower pack.

J P Stein

Leeds:
I hope you'z guys don't sell the 914. We need something to shoot at.

Also there will be (God willing & the creek don't rise) a 914 autocross shootout
in the Bay area next spring/summer ....a 2 day deal...and we NW guys are gonna need some help with them Nocal pukes. Consider this your official invite......Greg too if he has time.

PedalFaster

Just FYI, the E Stock (the 944's class) national championship was won by a Miata this year, which would seem to contradict your statement.