2022 SCCA PAX released
11-23-2021 | 02:40 PM
#16
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 756
Likes: 65
From: Rio Rancho, NM
Very interesting thread. Maybe this will shine a little light. SS has always been the halo class. The class where the coolest sports cars drop into. Its always been the most transitional class. Every year its had a new top car as the latest and greatest car hit that class. Its a proving ground or a starting point if you will for cars...then they trickle into respective classes. ( I remember when the CRXSi was in SS) At least this is how it was until the C5 Z06 came out.. Then the class exploded... I remember everyone saying no way people will spend 50K plus for an SS car....and 50 showed up at nationals.... Then the C6Z came along and it got bigger!....Then in went the 997 GT3, Lotus Elise and a few others...it continued to grow... When the GT3 went in everyone said WOW 100K car, no way. you will kill the class...that year 6 showed up..and the field was 60 cars.. The 991 came out.... the GT4 came out. Since, SS has proven that you can have over a million dollars in grid.. People spend the money for the cool cars.
Where am I going? Yes, SS is due for a tweak, (my opinion) the lower cars in SS (in my opinion) need to move out to A /B / etc and those classes require tweaking. ( cayman R, lotus, maybe 2016 gt4 for example)
We are entering into a crazy time.... C8Z06/GT3/GT4RS/Emira/NSX type S.... All of these cars are the top cars that everyone wants to have. Will they be excluded from SS? In my opinion, NOPE.....(maybe the NSX as they are only making 300 we will see 600HP wow).... The balance C8Z06 (They will make what 25K? It will reset the bar with HP 670 awesome chassis, PDK, computer controlled diff) This opens the door for the GT3.....That opens the door for the GT4RS... (same power on skinnier tires, less downforce). Both Porsches Porsche has said they will make as many as they have orders for.be patient .(They will make halo cars until the electric cars take over).. Heck they made 3500 991.2 GT3s in 2018.... Most certain the NEW GT3 will sell just as many... same for the GT4RS.... The cost??? Its clear from the 991s, people will open their wallets for this class. If you see that people are willing to spend 50K over sticker to get a GT3... People have cash, stupid cash.
Remember, it took a little bit but the 997 GT3 RS is in SS.....if you can find it and buy it... I would not be surprised to see the 991.1 or .2 GT3 RS move into SS down the road based on the new cars that I expect to go into SS....
Hang on, its gonna be one hell of a ride..
Where am I going? Yes, SS is due for a tweak, (my opinion) the lower cars in SS (in my opinion) need to move out to A /B / etc and those classes require tweaking. ( cayman R, lotus, maybe 2016 gt4 for example)
We are entering into a crazy time.... C8Z06/GT3/GT4RS/Emira/NSX type S.... All of these cars are the top cars that everyone wants to have. Will they be excluded from SS? In my opinion, NOPE.....(maybe the NSX as they are only making 300 we will see 600HP wow).... The balance C8Z06 (They will make what 25K? It will reset the bar with HP 670 awesome chassis, PDK, computer controlled diff) This opens the door for the GT3.....That opens the door for the GT4RS... (same power on skinnier tires, less downforce). Both Porsches Porsche has said they will make as many as they have orders for.be patient .(They will make halo cars until the electric cars take over).. Heck they made 3500 991.2 GT3s in 2018.... Most certain the NEW GT3 will sell just as many... same for the GT4RS.... The cost??? Its clear from the 991s, people will open their wallets for this class. If you see that people are willing to spend 50K over sticker to get a GT3... People have cash, stupid cash.
Remember, it took a little bit but the 997 GT3 RS is in SS.....if you can find it and buy it... I would not be surprised to see the 991.1 or .2 GT3 RS move into SS down the road based on the new cars that I expect to go into SS....
Hang on, its gonna be one hell of a ride..
11-23-2021 | 05:42 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 561
Likes: 312
From: South Jersey
Very interesting thread. Maybe this will shine a little light. SS has always been the halo class. The class where the coolest sports cars drop into. Its always been the most transitional class. Every year its had a new top car as the latest and greatest car hit that class. Its a proving ground or a starting point if you will for cars...then they trickle into respective classes. ( I remember when the CRXSi was in SS) At least this is how it was until the C5 Z06 came out.. Then the class exploded... I remember everyone saying no way people will spend 50K plus for an SS car....and 50 showed up at nationals.... Then the C6Z came along and it got bigger!....Then in went the 997 GT3, Lotus Elise and a few others...it continued to grow... When the GT3 went in everyone said WOW 100K car, no way. you will kill the class...that year 6 showed up..and the field was 60 cars.. The 991 came out.... the GT4 came out. Since, SS has proven that you can have over a million dollars in grid.. People spend the money for the cool cars.
Where am I going? Yes, SS is due for a tweak, (my opinion) the lower cars in SS (in my opinion) need to move out to A /B / etc and those classes require tweaking. ( cayman R, lotus, maybe 2016 gt4 for example)
We are entering into a crazy time.... C8Z06/GT3/GT4RS/Emira/NSX type S.... All of these cars are the top cars that everyone wants to have. Will they be excluded from SS? In my opinion, NOPE.....(maybe the NSX as they are only making 300 we will see 600HP wow).... The balance C8Z06 (They will make what 25K? It will reset the bar with HP 670 awesome chassis, PDK, computer controlled diff) This opens the door for the GT3.....That opens the door for the GT4RS... (same power on skinnier tires, less downforce). Both Porsches Porsche has said they will make as many as they have orders for.be patient .(They will make halo cars until the electric cars take over).. Heck they made 3500 991.2 GT3s in 2018.... Most certain the NEW GT3 will sell just as many... same for the GT4RS.... The cost??? Its clear from the 991s, people will open their wallets for this class. If you see that people are willing to spend 50K over sticker to get a GT3... People have cash, stupid cash.
Remember, it took a little bit but the 997 GT3 RS is in SS.....if you can find it and buy it... I would not be surprised to see the 991.1 or .2 GT3 RS move into SS down the road based on the new cars that I expect to go into SS....
Hang on, its gonna be one hell of a ride..
Where am I going? Yes, SS is due for a tweak, (my opinion) the lower cars in SS (in my opinion) need to move out to A /B / etc and those classes require tweaking. ( cayman R, lotus, maybe 2016 gt4 for example)
We are entering into a crazy time.... C8Z06/GT3/GT4RS/Emira/NSX type S.... All of these cars are the top cars that everyone wants to have. Will they be excluded from SS? In my opinion, NOPE.....(maybe the NSX as they are only making 300 we will see 600HP wow).... The balance C8Z06 (They will make what 25K? It will reset the bar with HP 670 awesome chassis, PDK, computer controlled diff) This opens the door for the GT3.....That opens the door for the GT4RS... (same power on skinnier tires, less downforce). Both Porsches Porsche has said they will make as many as they have orders for.be patient .(They will make halo cars until the electric cars take over).. Heck they made 3500 991.2 GT3s in 2018.... Most certain the NEW GT3 will sell just as many... same for the GT4RS.... The cost??? Its clear from the 991s, people will open their wallets for this class. If you see that people are willing to spend 50K over sticker to get a GT3... People have cash, stupid cash.
Remember, it took a little bit but the 997 GT3 RS is in SS.....if you can find it and buy it... I would not be surprised to see the 991.1 or .2 GT3 RS move into SS down the road based on the new cars that I expect to go into SS....
Hang on, its gonna be one hell of a ride..
Last edited by chriswd62; 11-23-2021 at 05:46 PM.
12-01-2021 | 05:31 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 561
Likes: 312
From: South Jersey
Wow. I just saw they updated the SST PAX. That's a bit high, but I get it. However, it should be just .01 away from XS-A. That class allows pretty much any street legal modification on 200tw tires. Why even go SST then?
12-02-2021 | 12:16 AM
#20
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,029
Likes: 66
From: Chesapeake, VA
12-02-2021 | 12:01 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 393
Likes: 113
From: Normal, IL
I don't know what you are talking about in this bolded section. I don't think that the Porsche variants in class are the cars to have but just taking those, all would benefit from allowances in suspension (coilovers, camber plates, toe arms?, sway bars at both ends), wheels (both diameter beyond 1" limitation and width, and no limitation on offsets) which would allow more tire to be adequately supported and better performance out of tires which need more than -1.3 camber, exhausts and tuning, weight reduction, race seats, etc. This is just scratching the surface of what ST allows. I'd suspect nearly all of the cars proposed would see a very appreciable pick up of speed if modified correctly and properly sorted. For CAMS and XSA, now you are getting into additional allowances which can really reduce weight, add downforce with aero, and performance.
Last edited by Z3papa; 12-02-2021 at 12:09 PM.
12-03-2021 | 01:26 AM
#22
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,029
Likes: 66
From: Chesapeake, VA
I don't know what you are talking about in this bolded section. I don't think that the Porsche variants in class are the cars to have but just taking those, all would benefit from allowances in suspension (coilovers, camber plates, toe arms?, sway bars at both ends), wheels (both diameter beyond 1" limitation and width, and no limitation on offsets) which would allow more tire to be adequately supported and better performance out of tires which need more than -1.3 camber, exhausts and tuning, weight reduction, race seats, etc. This is just scratching the surface of what ST allows. I'd suspect nearly all of the cars proposed would see a very appreciable pick up of speed if modified correctly and properly sorted. For CAMS and XSA, now you are getting into additional allowances which can really reduce weight, add downforce with aero, and performance.
What I was referencing: a Z06 is able to get nearly as much camber in AS as a 997 is able to get with ST mods. (And a SS GT3 is able to get even more.)
Last edited by sjfehr; 12-03-2021 at 07:36 PM.
12-03-2021 | 11:13 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 393
Likes: 113
From: Normal, IL
Where to begin. The SS GT3 is not in SST. As for the Z06, if you think that someone who has read the ST allowances can't exact more time out a Z06, you are not reading the rules closely enough. Will then benefit as much as other cars, NO. Will they get no benefit, of course they will. I'm not talking about someone who just wants to slap some wider wheels/tires and maybe a header on either. I know you are just stepping into the deep end on your STU build but the guys on the serious end of the stick are way further into the quick sand than you are. There is a local, Alex Tziortzis, who runs a Z06 nationally in SSP and CAMS, KOTM now some XSA who went full in with removing the goofy rear leaf spring setup and putting in full on coilovers with HUGE improvement. That may not be allowed by ST allowances but is an example of deep end commitment.
12-03-2021 | 07:36 PM
#24
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,029
Likes: 66
From: Chesapeake, VA
Oh, I'm well aware GT3 is not in SST. My point was that an SS GT3 has more camber and more power than any STU or SST Porsche, yet the STU and SST Porsches are paxed significantly stiffer than SS. (STU permits LCA _or_ camber plates, not both; GT3 comes with both) Diminishing returns with power. The only thing GT3 can't get in SS is springs, but OE springs are already close to what we'd be using for ST. I would never expect any Porsche to approach SS times. If you took a GT3 and gave it ST mods, it would see very little gain because it already comes stock in ST trim; there's just not much left to do to it for optimization. Yet 981 and 718 are supposed to be .66 seconds faster than a GT3? With a better suspension, rear-steer, etc? SST Porsches are not the car to have for the class.
Z06s will find more time in SST than in AS, there is no doubt. But I would not expect them to find as much time with ST mods than, say, an M3 or STi or most other cars do from Street to ST, just because Z06 is closer to ST performance from the factory than a lot of other ST cars that can see much larger % improvements in wheels, tires, camber, springs, power. I think SST Z06 is one of the few cars capable of raw-timing SS GT3s. But not 0.66 seconds faster.
Any course that has even the slightest disadvantage to the Z06s will be destroyed by an Elise.
Z06s will find more time in SST than in AS, there is no doubt. But I would not expect them to find as much time with ST mods than, say, an M3 or STi or most other cars do from Street to ST, just because Z06 is closer to ST performance from the factory than a lot of other ST cars that can see much larger % improvements in wheels, tires, camber, springs, power. I think SST Z06 is one of the few cars capable of raw-timing SS GT3s. But not 0.66 seconds faster.
Any course that has even the slightest disadvantage to the Z06s will be destroyed by an Elise.
Last edited by sjfehr; 12-03-2021 at 08:19 PM.
12-06-2021 | 07:55 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 393
Likes: 113
From: Normal, IL
As bad as the seats are in a C5Z, I'd argue just that allowance paired with long tube headers, race cats and a lightweight battery with wider front wheels would be serious low hanging fruit. I guarantee there's more. Anyone going this rabbit hole needs to fully invested.
12-08-2021 | 02:04 PM
#26
Intermediate
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 29
Likes: 7
Oh, I'm well aware GT3 is not in SST. My point was that an SS GT3 has more camber and more power than any STU or SST Porsche, yet the STU and SST Porsches are paxed significantly stiffer than SS. (STU permits LCA _or_ camber plates, not both; GT3 comes with both) Diminishing returns with power. The only thing GT3 can't get in SS is springs, but OE springs are already close to what we'd be using for ST. I would never expect any Porsche to approach SS times. If you took a GT3 and gave it ST mods, it would see very little gain because it already comes stock in ST trim; there's just not much left to do to it for optimization. Yet 981 and 718 are supposed to be .66 seconds faster than a GT3? With a better suspension, rear-steer, etc? SST Porsches are not the car to have for the class.
Z06s will find more time in SST than in AS, there is no doubt. But I would not expect them to find as much time with ST mods than, say, an M3 or STi or most other cars do from Street to ST, just because Z06 is closer to ST performance from the factory than a lot of other ST cars that can see much larger % improvements in wheels, tires, camber, springs, power. I think SST Z06 is one of the few cars capable of raw-timing SS GT3s. But not 0.66 seconds faster.
Any course that has even the slightest disadvantage to the Z06s will be destroyed by an Elise.
Z06s will find more time in SST than in AS, there is no doubt. But I would not expect them to find as much time with ST mods than, say, an M3 or STi or most other cars do from Street to ST, just because Z06 is closer to ST performance from the factory than a lot of other ST cars that can see much larger % improvements in wheels, tires, camber, springs, power. I think SST Z06 is one of the few cars capable of raw-timing SS GT3s. But not 0.66 seconds faster.
Any course that has even the slightest disadvantage to the Z06s will be destroyed by an Elise.
I agree on the GT3 verses the other car approach... You pay less to buy a vette then you spend to make it good. The GT3 (and many other P cars) come ready to go.... you pay up front..