stealthx32

How's the 951 in B-stock? I know the S2000 is the dominator on a national level, but is the lack of a 951 because no one campaigns a 951? Or is it not well suited for autocross? I'm trying to make a decision on my next car, and auto-x class is a factor in my puchase. Thanks in advance!

M758

Not suited well to autocross due to turbo. I autocrossed my stock 951S in PCA. I actually run faster in a stock 83 944 na since I am never in the power band in my 951S.

C5Driver951

I get spanked on a regular basis in my 89 951. It's not very well suited to a tight course, but it's still a blast.

If you need to drive a 944 variant, buy an N/A. I'd love to have a 968 w/ M030 personally.

adrial

Bah!

Guy I know in metro NY PCA region took FTD with his basically stock 89 951.

Mod list? Mild suspension work, 265 rear tires 245 front, engine wise is increased boost via MBC and chips at the most. Stock interior, no weight loss.

And that was on a tight course, he was actually in 1st gear for the entire thing....

Z-man

Adrial: was he running against mostly Porsches or at an SCCA or NASA event?

You're talking about Henry Hoegh, right?

-Z.

adrial

Zoltan,

Yup, Henry Hoeh (sp?)

It was mostly Porsches, so understandably its not the same as competing at an SCCA or other more diverse groups. I'm not sure if Kevin Wallace was there with his TVR or not, I dont think so though.

I'm curious to see how he would have faired at an SCCA or similar event.

PedalFaster

What they said.

Various 944 variants have done quite well in SCCA autocrossing; the 944S2 had some success in the late '90s, and the 968 was one of the two cars to have in its class (the other being the Toyota MR2 Turbo) before the Boxster and S2000 came along. There are some who say the 968 could still contend for a national championship; even if that's not the case at the moment, it almost definitely will be if the Boxster and S2000 are moved up a class as has been proposed.

The 951 is in the same class as all of the aforementioned cars in SCCA competition. I've never seen one run seriously; there isn't a single one running in Stock in the six years of archived Nationals results. Makes sense -- a 944S2 or 968 should be just as fast, but without the pesky turbo lag.

I don't know if it's still available, but if I were in the market for an autocross 944/968, I'd buy this one in a heartbeat: http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultima...33.html#000000.

Steve
- Honda S2000

Z-man

Steve,
That 968 sounds like a well-sorted car!

-Z-man, wishing he had $18k to play with!

PedalFaster

Seriously -- the cost of the "cheap" 951 I bought last month is creeping up on $20k as I change more and more stuff. The thought that I could have bought a fully-sorted 968 for less keeps me up at night...

Steve

C5Driver951

I have done a number of autocrosses with the SCCA in my car, and am not that slow... However, with the stock lag and the lack of torque off of the line it's hard to compete.

I drove a Boxster and came out with a top 3, but never got higher than 8th for overall in my car.

Matt Murray won a national title with his 968, and I still would like to try one of those.

The 944 turbos just aren't classed very well for their capabilities on the auto-x course.

Adrial: turning up the boost is an automatic hit to either SM2 or a modified class. If I could get some more boost lower in the rev range, I think the car would compete well.

Jason_86_951

I always get put into BP or BM in my local clubs due to my MBC and camberplates, but my times would compete in the bstock class pretty well. I've done as well as being 4th FTD in a group of 40 cars or so, with lots of C5's Boxsters, and a S2000 or 2. In my club the FTD usally ends up being a Mazda GTX thats driven by a very fast driver.
I remember read the Nationals list last year and there was a guy who did fairly well in a prepared class.

PedalFaster

Keep in mind that your car is prepared far beyond what's legal in Stock; in a sport where the difference between a class-leading car and an also-ran is a half second on a minute-long course, your car can't really be used as a datapoint for a discussion of the 951's prospects in Stock.

You're probably thinking of Richard Beecher, who took the fourth and final trophy spot in B Prepared. He was more than six seconds off of the pace, though, which doesn't really prove anything about the 951's competitiveness; for comparison's sake, if you were six seconds behind the leader in B Stock at last year's Nationals, you would have ended up in 42nd place.

Going back to the original question -- at the local / regional level, driver skill is far more important than what car you bring to the party, as the FTD-setting Mazda GTX in Jason_86_951's region demonstrates. A good driver in a 951 is going to beat a bad driver in an S2000 every time. It's only once you get to the National level and have people beating each other by hundredths and thousandths that the relatively subtle differences between cars in a class really start to matter. So unless you're planning on racing nationally, a 951 wouldn't be a bad choice.

Steve
- 1/1000th out of third in BS at the Phoenix National Tour

fc-racer

I think the 951S can be a heck of an auto-x car if setup properly. The car needs to be absolutely dialed in and the driver cannot make mistakes. The lag destroys any chance of recovering from mistakes. I really enjoyed autocrossing my 944 Turbo S and still rank it as the best car I've ever owned.

We had two 944 Turbo S' that we were doing development and testing on and both did very well in Western Canada. Both drivers do pretty well in any car with Paul being better at low speed tracks and I being better at higher speed tracks.

I would LOVE to have taken the Turbo S up Knox Mountain Hillclimb, now that would have been fun. I also didn't get a chance to really race the car down in Washington, but did take a 3rd at WA National Tour in my other car just edging out Greg Downing in his GTX and had a lot of fun at Nationals in Tamandli's crazy car.

In conclusion, the 944 Turbo S can be made to be competitive, but not a champion, on a higher speed course; you need to have the setup perfect and the driver can't make any mistakes.

Magown

Farzaan, since it has been about 2 years since you sold your 951. Care to share some tips on how to dial one in perfectly?

fc-racer

I never believe in hiding any secrets. Even when I was competitively racing that car, I shared my details with everyone and anyone, although I would do it about 3 months after I installed the mod or made the change. I provided Keith with all the info on the alignment settings, etc. The big deal really is getting the ride height correct, alignment settings and making sure the car is in perfect condition.

If you are allowed to modify the engine management stuff, a set of chips with a drilled cycling valve or manual boost controller will get you 90% there in terms of engine performance and lag reduction.

Hopefully Keith will chime in because I don't remember the specs off-hand. I do remember that when Greg Fordahl and I talked about setting up 944/968's, our alignment settings were almost identical with his having more negative camber all around. It felt pretty cool to have him validate my work.