I've been an audiophile for most of my adult life - I was recently blown away
11-03-2011, 10:43 AM
#17
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Hey Dan, you saw those smileys, right? I was teasing you, you certainly did not "insult me" 
Somehow king seems to get credit for things he has just made models for. Nothing in his work can not be found in the works of the "real" pioneers in TL and horn theory. He just made it easy to model some types of enclosures. He's a smart guy for sure. The "problem" is that speakers are systems and just because you can model a device and stick a driver in it does not make it a good idea!
TL's are great speakers but not for single drivers! Efficiency, low excursion and low moving mass are mandatory for high spl's and dynamics. TL's do nothing to help this problem. BTW.....I'm using the "TL" to loosely describe all the pipes that are not horns!
The only way to increase efficiency while lowering excursion is to horn load the driver. The only way to shrink the mouth of a horn is to corner load it. Paul Klipsch figured this out in the 40's.
Nothing has changed with those pesky laws of physics since then!
MK's "designs" and "math" are nothing new.....they do help you "get close" but again a calculator and some basic loudspeaker theory gets you there just as well. I had rejected every loading except rear horn loading years before MK came on the scene. Spent 10 years building and experimenting. And I had been building speakers for >15 years before that! And I've been building the same speaker for 12 years now!
Dan, I really was not trying to give you a hard time! You certainly are not the first to not understand this subject. I only replied to clear things up!
One last tidbit.......there is a reason why Stereophile waived the requirements for me to get a review and they have never reviewed any speaker designed using MK's work. MK without knowing it and he'll never admit did a lot of damage to the design of single driver speakers by steering folks in the wrong direction. This comes from using "math" to arrive at a solution without understanding the problem!
AFAIK he no longer champions single driver designs.............
I've been waiting decades to use the Heils again.....by coupling them to my full range single driver speaker It transforms them into a true 2 way of >93db efficiency and since the xover is so low they are "almost" still a single driver speaker. This is very important......unlike the original ESS speakers my design has higher efficiency, lower excursion and a total moving mass of under 5 grams.
Anyway, again, hope I did not offend you with my teasing! I did put smileys in there!
This is just the tip of the iceberg.......
I'll leave you guys alone now, unless you have questions. I hope my postings are ok, if not they should be deleted. I do not want to come across as a "salesman" on your forum! On my forum all subjects are welcome but I realize not all others are that way but I feel it important to get the facts straight!
Sorta like if i said....."a Porshe boxer engine is just like a Subaru engine only more expensive"
Have fun fellas!
Ed
btw...I did win an autocross once (first and only time I raced) in my Formula Ford engined '80 Ford Fiesta. Decimated the entire field. That little car humiliated a lot of fellas. It was gutted, lowered, engine lowered in the body, 10:6 to one, dual Webbers, 300degree A6 race cam, ported polished big valve Euro head.blah, blah, blah.....0 to 60 was under 6 seconds I could pick the back wheels off the ground.....I weigh 140 pounds! It was really light
Somehow king seems to get credit for things he has just made models for. Nothing in his work can not be found in the works of the "real" pioneers in TL and horn theory. He just made it easy to model some types of enclosures. He's a smart guy for sure. The "problem" is that speakers are systems and just because you can model a device and stick a driver in it does not make it a good idea!
TL's are great speakers but not for single drivers! Efficiency, low excursion and low moving mass are mandatory for high spl's and dynamics. TL's do nothing to help this problem. BTW.....I'm using the "TL" to loosely describe all the pipes that are not horns!
The only way to increase efficiency while lowering excursion is to horn load the driver. The only way to shrink the mouth of a horn is to corner load it. Paul Klipsch figured this out in the 40's.
Nothing has changed with those pesky laws of physics since then!
MK's "designs" and "math" are nothing new.....they do help you "get close" but again a calculator and some basic loudspeaker theory gets you there just as well. I had rejected every loading except rear horn loading years before MK came on the scene. Spent 10 years building and experimenting. And I had been building speakers for >15 years before that! And I've been building the same speaker for 12 years now!
Dan, I really was not trying to give you a hard time! You certainly are not the first to not understand this subject. I only replied to clear things up!
One last tidbit.......there is a reason why Stereophile waived the requirements for me to get a review and they have never reviewed any speaker designed using MK's work. MK without knowing it and he'll never admit did a lot of damage to the design of single driver speakers by steering folks in the wrong direction. This comes from using "math" to arrive at a solution without understanding the problem!
AFAIK he no longer champions single driver designs.............
I've been waiting decades to use the Heils again.....by coupling them to my full range single driver speaker It transforms them into a true 2 way of >93db efficiency and since the xover is so low they are "almost" still a single driver speaker. This is very important......unlike the original ESS speakers my design has higher efficiency, lower excursion and a total moving mass of under 5 grams.
Anyway, again, hope I did not offend you with my teasing! I did put smileys in there!
This is just the tip of the iceberg.......
I'll leave you guys alone now, unless you have questions. I hope my postings are ok, if not they should be deleted. I do not want to come across as a "salesman" on your forum! On my forum all subjects are welcome but I realize not all others are that way but I feel it important to get the facts straight!
Sorta like if i said....."a Porshe boxer engine is just like a Subaru engine only more expensive"
Have fun fellas!
Ed
btw...I did win an autocross once (first and only time I raced) in my Formula Ford engined '80 Ford Fiesta. Decimated the entire field. That little car humiliated a lot of fellas. It was gutted, lowered, engine lowered in the body, 10:6 to one, dual Webbers, 300degree A6 race cam, ported polished big valve Euro head.blah, blah, blah.....0 to 60 was under 6 seconds I could pick the back wheels off the ground.....I weigh 140 pounds! It was really light
11-03-2011, 03:34 PM
#18
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Dan, now you've gone and done it! You insulted me by comparing my speaker to anything MK has done!
You see, long before Martin ruined everything for single driver speaker design I had spent 10 years actually building, designing and listening to single drivers. That was 12 years ago.
While Martins' work may enable you to model and build a speaker, it will not insure the speaker actually sounds good. His TL programs are good for building TL's. TL's SUCK as single driver speakers.
This is a touchy subject but Let's just say that George's speakers will play louder (at a distortion level you can tolerate) on 10 watts than any MK design using a driver less than 8 inches will on any amount of power.
The speakers George has are a 6 foot exponential rear loaded corner horn using a 4 inch driver and a Heil.
As to whether I "know how to use it"......well, we built magnet structures from scratch 30 years ago and made diaphragms from scratch.....which was a "fail" so we bought them from ESS. Have receipts to prove it!
The Horns are a single driver full range back loaded corner horn....unless they are a true 2 way using a Heil....and then they are a 2 way back loaded corner horn. Xover freq., type and slope is "classified" but is about 600hz and asymmetrical. I went through several variations and it ended up nothing like what I thought it would be.
Anyway, darn you, for thinking I'd need MK for anything! I was here long before him. His work will absolutely allow you to model a design before you build it and it will perform as the model predicts. the problem is the type of speakers it will tell you how to build will have limited SPL and dynamics.
Please do not confuse a true corner horn to a "hybrid".
The Horns in a 17 X17 room will make peaks in excess of 105db at the back wall.....in single driver configuration with >10 watts. the math actually supports this, BTW.
Hope this does not come across as an ad. If so, just delete it but Dan's speculation required clarification.
Ed
You see, long before Martin ruined everything for single driver speaker design I had spent 10 years actually building, designing and listening to single drivers. That was 12 years ago.
While Martins' work may enable you to model and build a speaker, it will not insure the speaker actually sounds good. His TL programs are good for building TL's. TL's SUCK as single driver speakers.
This is a touchy subject but Let's just say that George's speakers will play louder (at a distortion level you can tolerate) on 10 watts than any MK design using a driver less than 8 inches will on any amount of power.
The speakers George has are a 6 foot exponential rear loaded corner horn using a 4 inch driver and a Heil.
As to whether I "know how to use it"......well, we built magnet structures from scratch 30 years ago and made diaphragms from scratch.....which was a "fail" so we bought them from ESS. Have receipts to prove it!
The Horns are a single driver full range back loaded corner horn....unless they are a true 2 way using a Heil....and then they are a 2 way back loaded corner horn. Xover freq., type and slope is "classified" but is about 600hz and asymmetrical. I went through several variations and it ended up nothing like what I thought it would be.
Anyway, darn you, for thinking I'd need MK for anything! I was here long before him. His work will absolutely allow you to model a design before you build it and it will perform as the model predicts. the problem is the type of speakers it will tell you how to build will have limited SPL and dynamics.
Please do not confuse a true corner horn to a "hybrid".
The Horns in a 17 X17 room will make peaks in excess of 105db at the back wall.....in single driver configuration with >10 watts. the math actually supports this, BTW.
Hope this does not come across as an ad. If so, just delete it but Dan's speculation required clarification.
Ed
Hello Ed,
Are you now saying the speaker is not 93 db/1w/m , as referenced above, at 93db it would require 122 watts for a 105db @ 17ft or close to 500 watts if there is no linesource type room gain from the horn loading.
I'm not sure if that type speaker would have the standard 3 or 6db per doubling, i'm leaning towards 3 db due to room gain and the Heil.
Which model speaker did stereophile review.......
Regards...............
Last edited by A.Wayne; 11-03-2011 at 03:51 PM.
11-03-2011, 04:16 PM
#19
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Wayne, you fell into the trap 
The numbers do not always tell the truth!
JA got 93db in the review. They were not in corners! Since that was the case, the mouth was not fully formed and they are FR single drivers....by sticking them in the corners you get "by the math" 3-6db gain (applies to any speaker in 1/8 space). so now we have let's say "only" 96db/watt.....but wait we have stereo! Doubling amplifier power and cone area equals another 3 db! for a system efficiency of close to 100db! 1 watt=99....2watts=103......4 watts = 106......8=109! And that's about the limit.
Since they are corner horns you are actually "sitting in the mouth".......SPL's at the back wall are not much different than 8 feet away. It makes no sense but is easy to demonstrate....do it all the time.
I demonstrate this all the time! They are also a very easy load.....sensitivity is different than efficiency......they are both sensitive and efficient......
We have "open party" first weekend in May....find my forum and come join the fun! You can see /hear it first hand
Ed
edit***** Wayne, the SPL figures are peaks, not continuous avg. SPL. Either analog or digital Rat Shack meter set to "max peak" set to "fast response"......."Enter Sandman" at 105 peaks is a piece of cake and the kid saying the Lords Prayer is crystal clear
The numbers do not always tell the truth!JA got 93db in the review. They were not in corners! Since that was the case, the mouth was not fully formed and they are FR single drivers....by sticking them in the corners you get "by the math" 3-6db gain (applies to any speaker in 1/8 space). so now we have let's say "only" 96db/watt.....but wait we have stereo! Doubling amplifier power and cone area equals another 3 db! for a system efficiency of close to 100db! 1 watt=99....2watts=103......4 watts = 106......8=109! And that's about the limit.
Since they are corner horns you are actually "sitting in the mouth".......SPL's at the back wall are not much different than 8 feet away. It makes no sense but is easy to demonstrate....do it all the time.
I demonstrate this all the time! They are also a very easy load.....sensitivity is different than efficiency......they are both sensitive and efficient......
We have "open party" first weekend in May....find my forum and come join the fun! You can see /hear it first hand
Ed
edit***** Wayne, the SPL figures are peaks, not continuous avg. SPL. Either analog or digital Rat Shack meter set to "max peak" set to "fast response"......."Enter Sandman" at 105 peaks is a piece of cake and the kid saying the Lords Prayer is crystal clear
Last edited by Ed Schilling; 11-03-2011 at 05:22 PM. Reason: more info....
11-03-2011, 05:26 PM
#20
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Yeah , but you said 93db.. so the trap is misleading assumptions ... 
Anyway those numbers are based on 1 M the listening distance was 5.6 M , the additional channel gain is a min of 3 db and can be as high as 5db , due to room gain.. ( measure)
Also i would suspect pretty high distortion from such a small driver running at 103 db, VCID, So on and so forth ...
Anyway good luck with the speaker, it's a tough business that has gotten even tougher, don't regret one bit leaving it behind ....
Anyway those numbers are based on 1 M the listening distance was 5.6 M , the additional channel gain is a min of 3 db and can be as high as 5db , due to room gain.. ( measure)
Also i would suspect pretty high distortion from such a small driver running at 103 db, VCID, So on and so forth ...
Anyway good luck with the speaker, it's a tough business that has gotten even tougher, don't regret one bit leaving it behind ....
11-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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Thanks Wayne, yea it's a little tough. We've only sold about 500 pair over the last 12 years.....I've been called a liar (literally) many times with relation to the clean SPL's they can make. Always by people who have never been in the room or don't own them and more than 10 watts When I built the first ones I had 4 La Scalas.....and an SPL meter.
If you read the Pass article on his big Klein horn I "think" he mentions something about the measurements at one meter vs. several away. I suspect this is the case with mine......here you go......
"Note also that the measurements for KleinHorns are taken on axis at 6 feet, not at the
usual 1 meter. This is because the wave at the mouth at the low end is sufficiently large
that you find yourself seeing no bottom end – at 1 meter you are in the region of the
horn still defined as high displacement and low pressure. To get a more accurate
picture you have to back off at least a ¼ wavelength."
Although he is mainly talking about freq. response (I think) I suspect since a major portion of the "power" is in the bass/mid bass this accounts for the difference in far field SPL measurements vs. what one would get "by the numbers". Being a corner horn they seem not to behave like a typical direct radiator.
Just a guess......but again, I understand skepticism....been dealing with it for years! No one believes it until they see it. As to "distortion" well, I'm not about to listen to a system distorting regardless of the level....the numbers I speak of are not at levels of distortion you would find "disturbing"....and if you walk in the next room it sounds like a band, not a stereo is in the other room.
Oh crap, that sounds like an ad........sorry.
Ed
Ed
When I built the first ones I had 4 La Scalas.....and an SPL meter. If you read the Pass article on his big Klein horn I "think" he mentions something about the measurements at one meter vs. several away. I suspect this is the case with mine......here you go......
"Note also that the measurements for KleinHorns are taken on axis at 6 feet, not at the
usual 1 meter. This is because the wave at the mouth at the low end is sufficiently large
that you find yourself seeing no bottom end – at 1 meter you are in the region of the
horn still defined as high displacement and low pressure. To get a more accurate
picture you have to back off at least a ¼ wavelength."
Although he is mainly talking about freq. response (I think) I suspect since a major portion of the "power" is in the bass/mid bass this accounts for the difference in far field SPL measurements vs. what one would get "by the numbers". Being a corner horn they seem not to behave like a typical direct radiator.
Just a guess......but again, I understand skepticism....been dealing with it for years! No one believes it until they see it. As to "distortion" well, I'm not about to listen to a system distorting regardless of the level....the numbers I speak of are not at levels of distortion you would find "disturbing"....and if you walk in the next room it sounds like a band, not a stereo is in the other room.
Oh crap, that sounds like an ad........sorry.
Ed
Ed
11-04-2011, 01:56 AM
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Hey Wayne, here is an image I just captured....Madonna... " Music"...3rd track. I am at the couch...the room is 17 X 17 couch is at the back wall....speakers in the corners. No subwoofer. No audible distortion.
I am using my pre amp and a 3 watt Transcendent Sound CFA amp (Bruce's prototype actually).
I am using my pre amp and a 3 watt Transcendent Sound CFA amp (Bruce's prototype actually).
11-04-2011, 11:43 AM
#24
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Ed,
I've seen your name referenced on the Frugel Horn website. I didn't place you with the Horn Shoppe reference. I should have.
It seems like lots of DIY'ers is modeling with MK's software. And yes, I understand that it doesn't guarantee a good sounding loudspeaker - just very good at predicting measurement outcomes.
The thing that's kept me away from considering single driver loudspeakers is the lack of top end (even though I can't hear it - 51 yrs old).
The thing I've always worried about Heils is that they expose the LF driver as slow.
I take it the 4" Fostex is fast enough to keep up!
Have you done any testing on going to a 5 or 6" driver to extend the bottom end and maintian the speed?
Really great stuff.
I've seen your name referenced on the Frugel Horn website. I didn't place you with the Horn Shoppe reference. I should have.
It seems like lots of DIY'ers is modeling with MK's software. And yes, I understand that it doesn't guarantee a good sounding loudspeaker - just very good at predicting measurement outcomes.
The thing that's kept me away from considering single driver loudspeakers is the lack of top end (even though I can't hear it - 51 yrs old).
The thing I've always worried about Heils is that they expose the LF driver as slow.
I take it the 4" Fostex is fast enough to keep up!
Have you done any testing on going to a 5 or 6" driver to extend the bottom end and maintian the speed?
Really great stuff.
11-04-2011, 03:27 PM
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Thanks Dan!!! I am so glad I did not offend. No, no experimenting with larger drivers.....4-5 inches is the "peach". Low bass is, in my opinion always better dealt with using a proper sub. By freeing the mains (or if they have limited bottom end naturally) allows you to place the bass unit in the "perfect" spot with relation to the listening area. This is why I never put an amp inside the sub. By using and outboard amp only one (can be very long) wire goes to the bass unit. Makes placement much easier.
Yes, the pairing of the Horns and Heils is seamless. The only downside I see is that they explode if you drop one!
You are exactly right about MK's work as far as I have seen. He's a smart guy.
A good single driver must have low mms, low excursion, high efficiency, cone area no bigger that 5 inches to avoid beaming, and the ability to play at realistic levels. Otherwise it is just a novelty. "Great bass" means nothing if the system can't break 90db!
That image was a lucky shot but accurate....and it was w/o the Heils. The result would have been the same with them.
The Horned Heils actually play much louder because the Fostex is no longer playing the midrange/top end which at high spls is "modulated" by the cone trying to make bass.
Giving the Fostex unlimited power handling and excursion would not allow it to play any louder because the "modulation distortion" would be intolerable.
But when that (no longer playing mid/high) is not a factor the ability of that little driver to play louder at a distortion level you can tolerate gets much higher.
Julian Hirsch determined the MMG Maggie had >10% distortion at 50 hz. I had some. They could not play at realistic levels if their life depended on it, with any amp and people think they have "good bass".
I'll take that same 10% at 105 db over sedate volumes at lower distortion any day. Joni should not be played at 100 db and Metallica MUST be played at over 100
Thanks again Dan, I really am glad I did not tick you off with my teasing
Ed
Yes, the pairing of the Horns and Heils is seamless. The only downside I see is that they explode if you drop one!
You are exactly right about MK's work as far as I have seen. He's a smart guy.
A good single driver must have low mms, low excursion, high efficiency, cone area no bigger that 5 inches to avoid beaming, and the ability to play at realistic levels. Otherwise it is just a novelty. "Great bass" means nothing if the system can't break 90db!
That image was a lucky shot but accurate....and it was w/o the Heils. The result would have been the same with them.
The Horned Heils actually play much louder because the Fostex is no longer playing the midrange/top end which at high spls is "modulated" by the cone trying to make bass.
Giving the Fostex unlimited power handling and excursion would not allow it to play any louder because the "modulation distortion" would be intolerable.
But when that (no longer playing mid/high) is not a factor the ability of that little driver to play louder at a distortion level you can tolerate gets much higher.
Julian Hirsch determined the MMG Maggie had >10% distortion at 50 hz. I had some. They could not play at realistic levels if their life depended on it, with any amp and people think they have "good bass".
I'll take that same 10% at 105 db over sedate volumes at lower distortion any day. Joni should not be played at 100 db and Metallica MUST be played at over 100
Thanks again Dan, I really am glad I did not tick you off with my teasing
Ed
11-05-2011, 10:28 AM
#26
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I'll make anyone who is interested a deal. Once I get my other amps and preamp you are welcome to come by anytime and listen. That makes it really easy to hear what Ed is talking about.
For those familiar with audio, when I worked in NY we carried Alon speakers (now Nola). The owner and engineer Carl Marchisotto used to be the chief engineer and designer at Dahlquist. He told me during one of our listening sessions that I had golden ears. That means nothing to anyone who isn't sitting in front of my system. But again, come listen anytime.
For those familiar with audio, when I worked in NY we carried Alon speakers (now Nola). The owner and engineer Carl Marchisotto used to be the chief engineer and designer at Dahlquist. He told me during one of our listening sessions that I had golden ears. That means nothing to anyone who isn't sitting in front of my system. But again, come listen anytime.
11-08-2011, 01:51 PM
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11-08-2011, 05:22 PM
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Dan, you're not too far - I'll definitely let you know when everything arrives. Being a music lover you might be interested in concerts we hold in my home with pianists that have played at Carnegie Hall. We usually have a group of about 40-50 people attend. I can keep you posted on when we're having our next event.
