champion tuning
01-20-2013, 02:28 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
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FYI, posted from somewhere else on the interwebz...
FYI my car with the OE block still produced over 670whp on street fuel (93 octane, similar to your UK 98 octane) and had no loss of power on the track at either high or low ambient temps from 45F through 90+F so I would call this heat soak issue a non factor with the Champion Motorsport kits.
In Europe 98-octane gasoline is common and in Japan even 100-octane is readily available at the pumps, but this octane nomenclature is misleading to Americans as foreign octane ratings are derived entirely differently from our own... So, like every other measurement system it seems that everyone else uses a different scale than we do, but unlike most other instances where we have had the good sense to create different units of measure in this case we all use the same name...
Japan and Europe use a system called RON or Research Octane Number to determine the octane rating of their gasoline, while stateside we use a system called AKI or Anti-Knock Index to determine gasoline's octane rating... Interestingly, to further complicate things it would seem that our own AKI system is actually derived from the average of the RON system and another more complicated system referred to as MON or Motor Octane Number... So, to recap our methodologies for measuring gasoline's octane rating are different, but share some common elements...
So, with the commonality of RON in mind a good rule of thumb is as follows, multiply the foreign RON Octane rating by 0.95 and you will have the US AKI equivalent.
( RON Octane Rating x 0.95 = AKI Octane Rating )
98 RON Octane x 0.95 = 93.1 AKI Octane (US measure)
100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)
So, as you can see the 93 or 94 octane fuel we are all paying an arm and a leg for is actually quite comparable to the higher octane fuels found in Europe and Japan. The people whom have to worry about low octane rating are our friends out west in places like California that are subjected to substandard 91 octane.
91 AKI Octane (US measure) = 95.5 RON Octane
Japan and Europe use a system called RON or Research Octane Number to determine the octane rating of their gasoline, while stateside we use a system called AKI or Anti-Knock Index to determine gasoline's octane rating... Interestingly, to further complicate things it would seem that our own AKI system is actually derived from the average of the RON system and another more complicated system referred to as MON or Motor Octane Number... So, to recap our methodologies for measuring gasoline's octane rating are different, but share some common elements...
So, with the commonality of RON in mind a good rule of thumb is as follows, multiply the foreign RON Octane rating by 0.95 and you will have the US AKI equivalent.
( RON Octane Rating x 0.95 = AKI Octane Rating )
98 RON Octane x 0.95 = 93.1 AKI Octane (US measure)
100 RON Octane x 0.95 = 95 AKI Octane (US measure)
So, as you can see the 93 or 94 octane fuel we are all paying an arm and a leg for is actually quite comparable to the higher octane fuels found in Europe and Japan. The people whom have to worry about low octane rating are our friends out west in places like California that are subjected to substandard 91 octane.
91 AKI Octane (US measure) = 95.5 RON Octane
01-20-2013, 02:35 PM
#17
You will also find that alot of people around the world modding other than the states will be running pump gas but possibly run a meth/water kit of some sort too.
01-20-2013, 02:39 PM
#18
Just for clarification, I have a 2.5 sachs clutch, awe i/c, Gt3 tb, Awe plenum, europipe exhaust stg 1 and awe/ giac tune which is approx. 625 hp. I am looking at getting more torque and hp which the dyno for the vtg 65 shows. I agree that I need to get more info before I decide .
Or do you already have the smaller hybrid vtg's?
01-20-2013, 02:45 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
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If 675whp on pump is not enough for the street then I don't know what to say. I personally extrapolate the rating to well over 700 BHP so that's another issue (VTG no good for over 700BHP) debunked IMO.
I don't use methanol/water injection. More complexity does not mean better in my eyes.
In my opinion, of course.
To the OP- is the Sachs 2.5 clutch a four paddle unsprung disc? I had that when I went to the 68mm kit. No problems at all except for harsh engagement. I am not a fan of mixing components from different companies- if your power adders are from AWE I would recommend with going with all AWE or if you are interested in Champion, going with all Champion. A lot easier to troubleshoot in the future if you have problems.
I don't use methanol/water injection. More complexity does not mean better in my eyes.
In my opinion, of course.
To the OP- is the Sachs 2.5 clutch a four paddle unsprung disc? I had that when I went to the 68mm kit. No problems at all except for harsh engagement. I am not a fan of mixing components from different companies- if your power adders are from AWE I would recommend with going with all AWE or if you are interested in Champion, going with all Champion. A lot easier to troubleshoot in the future if you have problems.
01-20-2013, 03:07 PM
#20
Thats good advice, does stop alot of headache!
01-20-2013, 07:01 PM
#21
AutoX
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Appreciate the comments regarding staying with one tuner and package when upgrading but intercoolers and plenum are not in my opinion a major issue as GIAC is ECU tuner for both and I would think not a major issue as I also have a europipe exhaust not AWE exhaust. The main concern is turbos and tune being compatible along with upgraded air flow and reduced backpressure which I have upgraded. In regards to clutch, no I do not have an unsprung unit and believe 650 ft/lbs of torque is the max. I believe if the 65mm vtg are real in power as dynos show then should have no issues.
01-21-2013, 06:24 AM
#22
Racer
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Why would you want to run 675+whp on unstable street fuel? The OP already said he didn't want to change clutches, and that level of HP (albeit relatively mild) will necessitate a clutch change.
We are all talking about different things, nobody is on the same page. I have a GT2, use GT2 hot sides and Champion Motorsport 68mm compressors and billet housings. 93 octane street fuel commonly found in Florida to Wisconsin, on my street ECM, and 116 (VP C16 usually) on my high HP race ECM. The street tunes cover a range from 620whp to about 700whp, and the race tunes range from about 720whp through to about 840whp.
We are all talking about different things, nobody is on the same page. I have a GT2, use GT2 hot sides and Champion Motorsport 68mm compressors and billet housings. 93 octane street fuel commonly found in Florida to Wisconsin, on my street ECM, and 116 (VP C16 usually) on my high HP race ECM. The street tunes cover a range from 620whp to about 700whp, and the race tunes range from about 720whp through to about 840whp.
01-21-2013, 06:30 AM
#23
Racer
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GTRNICK nailed it.. If you are running pump gas, this engine will not tolerate high levels of boost and maintain similar levels of exhaust restrictions. Be careful seeing race prep street engines with straight pipes and NO cats. I have several datalogs showing excessive cylinder knock retard over 1.2 bars of boost. To reduce the knock retard and one needs to lower boost, lower engine timing OR run higher octane fuel.
Installing a larger compressor wheel on the stock turbochargers does not leed to more power. Exhaust back pressure reductions will. Bigger overall gains can be seen when one changes the hot housings > upgrade to the larger GT2 hot housings. Please keep in mind that this turbocharger hot housing/turbine wheel is smaller than the 993TT and 996TT K16's. Power is increase due to higher boost levels.
Installing a larger compressor wheel on the stock turbochargers does not leed to more power. Exhaust back pressure reductions will. Bigger overall gains can be seen when one changes the hot housings > upgrade to the larger GT2 hot housings. Please keep in mind that this turbocharger hot housing/turbine wheel is smaller than the 993TT and 996TT K16's. Power is increase due to higher boost levels.
Great info as always Kevin. What spec would the ultimate VTG be in general terms ?
I asked this question in another place-- why stay with VTGs and not go other tried and true paths?
01-22-2013, 03:59 AM
#27
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GTRNICK
I saw your thread in the other forum. I highly recommend you go with Alpha turbos.We ran them for a years now with zero issues unlike modded vtgs ( overheat, stuck acctuator rods...etc )
Alpha's are straight bolt on, great response with more power even on pumpgas vs modded vtgs
Still cheaper and better than champion vtgs
I saw your thread in the other forum. I highly recommend you go with Alpha turbos.We ran them for a years now with zero issues unlike modded vtgs ( overheat, stuck acctuator rods...etc )
Alpha's are straight bolt on, great response with more power even on pumpgas vs modded vtgs
Still cheaper and better than champion vtgs
01-22-2013, 04:31 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
First of all here in the U.K. we have 99 octane straight out the pump!
Second of all I drive my car daily so for me to run race fuel on a daily basis I would have to own my own oil refinery lol
And thirdly you are on a different page to myself and I think the guy who started the thread so i agree with you there!
nice car and build by BTW
Second of all I drive my car daily so for me to run race fuel on a daily basis I would have to own my own oil refinery lol
And thirdly you are on a different page to myself and I think the guy who started the thread so i agree with you there!
nice car and build by BTW
01-22-2013, 05:43 AM
#30