mcurtisal

Hey guys, I've searched for hours on this forum and hoping fellow tip owners can advise whether my car's behavior is normal. I first noticed the problem when driving the car in stop and go traffic. As you take your foot off the accelerator, there is "clunk" that you feel as though the car has downshifted, but it hasn't. It will only do it after the car is fully warmed up and it doesn't happen if the sport mode is on (irrespective of the suspension setting).

I took it to my Porsche dealer and the SA said the tranny needed to be replaced. The extended warranty company agreed to repair the car but they would only rebuild the tip, instead of replacing it, which they did. I picked it up last week and there was no improvement.

So, is it a problem and the tranny wasn't rebuilt properly? Or is this normal behavior when you drive under 2000 rpm? Is it the torque converter locking and unlocking?

Car is a 2008 with 25k miles.

4ocious

I haven't noticed it but will check this out for you later this week and post my findings. Mine is a 07 with 25K miles.

Macster

Oh, sorry, for ZF read M-B. Mercedes Benz make the Turbo Tip transmissions not ZF. But there are shops around that do M-B tranny rebuilds too.

This is tricky.

If the SA and a senior tech believe the Tip needs to be replaced that's a good indication the symptom/behavior is not the normal minor clunking that can arise from acceptable drivetrain play.

I mean they all do that is often the first thing out of an SA's mouth and to not hear this suggests this is not a normal symptom/condition of a healthy Tip.

I note too the miles are low so this really is/would fall under a new car problem had the car been driven more while under the new car warranty. So this is not arising from normal wear and tear or abuse or even neglect since the miles are no where near where a fluid change is due. All of which reinforces the behavior is not normal and replacement is called for.

Now, we must consider this: For the SA to state the Tip needs to be replaced, that's right, as far as it goes. My info is that dealer service departments do not rebuild Tips even those that are rebuildable thus replacement given this situation is the only option from the SA's point of view.

However, my tech advisors tell me that these transmssions are made by ZF and there are a number of shops capable of doing a proper rebuild of one provided of course the unit is a viable rebuild candidate. But that is for the shop to determine and decide. This is often recommended to a customer when the car is out of warranty, as a rebuild is cheaper than a replacement.

I would hope though the warranty company would get some input as to whether the unit was rebuildable before having it rebuilt. Even so unlikely a Tip rebuild shop would risk its rep rebuilding a Tip thas was unlikely to remain healthy because of its unsuitability to be rebuilt.

So...the warranty company elected to have the Tip rebuilt to address the symptom/behavior the experts (SA + no doubt input from the techs) stated required replacement.

Ok. This was done and the symptom remains. Either the rebuild was not done right or the rebuild was not the solution, could not be the solution due to the condition of the Tip and it being unsuitable to rebuild in the first place.

What has the warranty company and the transmission shop had to say about this situation?

As an aside I have to stress that when in situations like this when one goes to pick up the car prepare for the worst and give the car a test drive to if possible determine if the symptom/behavior is still present. If it is you must reject the car and insist right then and there the car is not fixed as per your understanding. If you accept the car -- and the temptation is very strong to do this -- you have weakened your position, you have in some way accepted a subpar fix/repair.

Anyhow, you were told the Tip would be rebuilt to address the symptom. It was rebuilt and yet the symptom remains. The warranty company has not lived up to its obligation.

To continue, you have paid the warranty coverage premiums, the warranty company accepted responsibilty, agreed to honor the claim, though I might point out not in the way the experts recommended, and yet you are back where you were before.

This could be fraud, if the warranty company does not have the Tip either rebuilt again (though the odds are this would prove less than satisfactory -- I mean if the first rebuild was unsuccessful either the shop that rebuilt the unit is incompetent (give it the benefit of the doubt though and say it is not) or the unit simply can't be fixed by a rebuild the problem lies deeper than a rebuild can go) or at this time bites the bullet it should have bitten initially and had the unit replaced then you have not received services for which you paid for with your warranty purchase/premiums.

Consumer fraud.

Since the warranty company took this over and had the Tip rebuilt I would approach the warranty company with this and give it a chance to make things right. State that the symptom for which the unit was rebuilt is back and this is not acceptable. Because of this and because the warranty company has failed to deliver the results you were led to believe you would get when you bought this coverage and more recently when the claim was accepted and the unit sent out for rebuild that unless this can be addressed to your satisfaction you believe you have been a victim of consumer fraud and will have to file a complaint against the warranty company and the shop which did the rebuilt.

At this time the only acceptable resolution is for the warranty company to agree to have the Tip replaced which you remind the warranty company is the solution the experts gave when the car was first in.

The above assumes the symptom is just not due to say a low fluid level which even if is the case casts doubt on the rebuild process for if a shop is up to rebuilding one of these things properly making sure it leaves the shop with the proper type and level of fluid ought to be second nature or the symptom is not the same exactly but arising from something else, a bad motor mount, or transmission mount, a lose halfshaft or whatever. I mean your imagination might be hearing the same noises again but they are not from the same source.

mcurtisal

Macster, thanks so much for the detailed response. Assuming it's not normal, I'm leaning towards your conclusion that the transmission was not suitable for rebuild and they did it anyway because it was the only Tip they had available. Interestingly, the rebuilt tranny cost ~$6000 vs ~$14000 for the Porsche remanufactured unit. Unfortunately, the warranty company has now paid 2x for a removal & install and it still isn't fixed.

What is very strange is that it doesn't happen when the Sport mode is on. That had me hoping there is some other explanation as I really don't want to be without my car for another week (or two).

Macster

That the behavior is absent when sport mode is on means nothing to me. It may mean something to the Porsche SM and tech though. Ask.

Was it always like this? If so then and if the SM and tech were aware of this and still the verdict came down "replace" the Tip, I'd have to believe it doesn't mean anything.

Or it just occurred to me it may mean a lot.

Sport mode might up the hydraulic fluid pressure (to decrease shift times and lessen clutch band slippage to make shifts quicker) and this could be a sign fluid pressure in non sport mode is low, below some acceptable threshold at least, which could of course explain the replace recommendation you received.

Regardless, do not worry about how many times the warranty company has to pay to have the tranny dropped/installed. All you care about is getting the car back with the transmission fixed and right and of course installed right too.

dianic

My recommendation would be to contact Emre, a Turkish guy who is a sponsor on the 6speed forum. He is based in Turkey, and is very knowledgable with the tip, having modified several of them for very high power applications. I am sure he can give you an educated opinion with what the problem might be.
Good luck, and keep us updated.

bellemastiff

Not sure this is very helpful, except to chime in that, dealers do not repair tip trannies under warranty, they simply replace them if anything goes wrong. In another thread I describe how my 07 997.1tt Tip had a small oil leak from the tranny, and I ended up getting a brand new transmission with (nearly) no questions asked, replaced under warranty.

4ocious

I road-tested mine and did not notice the condition you describe in your post.

mcurtisal

Thanks guys. I'll send her back and wait for a new tranny. I shouldn't complain because I've had porsche's for over 6 years and never any issues. I'll let you know the outcome and post some pics. Cheers!

512bb

Good luck, but just in case have a chat with a Lemon Law attorney. In NJ, if you take the car in for the same issue 3 times and it's not fixed it could fall under the Lemon Laws. That will get them to go about this entirely differently and really try to fix the situation.

mcurtisal

Wanted to post the outcome and thank everyone for their input. So Macster was spot on, I took it to a 2nd Porsche dealer and they came up with the same conclusion after a lot of testing. It indeed was a fault in the transmission and the warranty company has since paid up for a new Porsche tranny. There was a lot of drama getting to this point including a claim that it was the result of an ECU flash that had damaged the computer in the transmission (not so). I'm looking forward to getting her back at the end of the week. Though a painful process, that extended warranty was the best money I ever spent considering it's costing over $20k for the new tranny.

PasPar2

who is your warranty carrier?