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New Turbo Exhaust - early Christmas Present

 
Old 11-04-2012, 04:04 PM
  #61  
phillipj
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Chris,

It would be great if you could provide some more sound clips. Even though they are not perfect it would be very helpful for those of us that are interested in your system.. Interior sound would be great and well as idle and full WOT exterior.. Have you sold your system to many folks in Southern California? It would be great to hear one "live"...

Thank you!

Phillip
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:56 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Chriss_kline View Post
Here is a soundclip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSgtiGv1AFc

Not the best recording. You can also here it on our web site kline-innovation.com

We dont have a dealer but you can buy direct from us. We can ship with TNT, 2-3 days.

You are welcome!
Soundclips are basically just clever marketing tools and more often than not are decieving in that they don't give the true, and, "full" picture of what an exhaust is really like (from both outside and inside) ....although that said after hearing that EB system which sounded like a sick tractor, clips at least have some basic merit in showing that the sound of an exhaust is at least somewhat pleasant.

Have you sold any 997tt.1 systems yet? And if so where are all the user reiews? User reviews are generally the best form of proof the system is actually any good. As i said earlier, has there ever been a manufacturer that hasn't said their systems are anything but brilliant technolgical engineering feats?

Excuse my scepticism, but for me, the proof of any pudding is in the eating....so less marketing jargon and let's hear from some users please! And hopefully more than one.

I'm also less than convinced with your reasoning behind your omission of heat shielding. Again, Newton physics and SHM aside, and looking in a practical sense, things can sometimes differ in real world operation. On a 997TT the heat generated during WOT is significant. One need only take a peak at the blue exhaust tips of a 997TT car that has done a few laps. You would be aware of the temperature range associated to sending tips blue? I recall looking at the Tubi when it was removed and the discolouration which had occured during its brief period on my car certainly indicated the exterior metal casings (cats and muffler) had been at temperatures well in excess of anything i'd want with direct exposure to certain components in the immediate area (having formal training in heat treatment i am aware of the temperatures and the colour markers etc). So to dismiss the need for heat shielding as superfluous is something you would would have a heck of a job convincing me of . Needless to say Tubi's "claim to fame" (another without heat shielding) is its use of "space age materials and technology" I recall (LOL!!).

I would however go along with your comment that "design is cost prohibitive", or can be cost prohibitive when seeking to manufacture an exhaust and supply it into the market at a price the market will accept and, I suspect this is why heat shielding is often ommited by most AM exhaust manufacturers....your's included, for the simple reason it costs money to put it there....and that reduces profitability.

I truly can't imagine your system being able to "refrigerate" hot exhaust gas to a point your system doesn't discolour in any way either....which indicts the temperatures emitting from it. Mind you everyone else's seems to discolour...Akra included. Radiant heat transfers very quickly and the metal colours don't lie.

So to suggest a car exhaust is able to draw heat from its surrounds (assume you mean surrounding components) to keep cool is a bit out there given the surrounds are all cooler than the exhaust with exception to the turbos and the rest of the exhaust which is as we already know is very hot indeed. How does the Newton theory explain this in a practical sense where specifically a motor vehicle exhaust is concerned? I'd like your answer on that because at the outset the only logical reason indicating why the shielding isn't there is cost, and profit factors.

Re my questioning your statement regarding the larger diameter EP cats stifling flow:

I note to date you have avoided answering my question, yet indeed clearly stated EP's concept of using larger diameter catalitic converters is flawed thinking and is essentially counterproductive in increasing exhaust flow, and therefore reducing back pressure etc. Can you please elaborate your position clearly with this by providing plausible answers? I'm sure I'm not the only member here that would like to hear from you on this key point. Or, is it that where Newtons "theory" is concerned practice has again produced a different outcome here as well?

PS My apologies for the edits, but wanted to be clear in my points and, what i wanted answers to. Thanks in anticipation of your quality answers.

Last edited by speed21; 11-05-2012 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:09 PM
  #63  
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I guess we can beat this exhaust thing to death..I know Markski's 911 tuning exhaust is good in his build to 900 hp...so i assume at some point that 3" diameter exhaust must come into play...there appears to be many variables and I can only assume that trying to find the "best" exhaust is basically impossible.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:15 PM
  #64  
DJ23
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I have the Europipe and love the sound and exhaust. Did you compare the AWE system with the EP before deciding. Otherwise can't wait to hear your input on your new exhaust. Good luck.

Jay
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:33 PM
  #65  
Terry Adams
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A major benefit of an AM exhaust has been overlooked in this discussion of sound and back pressure and heat shielding:

Turbo lag gone! Well, significantly reduced in my case.

There is no point to an extra 20-30 HP/TQ if even the already available 480/505 comes too late to do any good in the driving situation where it is called upon.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:16 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by DJ23 View Post
I have the Europipe and love the sound and exhaust. Did you compare the AWE system with the EP before deciding. Otherwise can't wait to hear your input on your new exhaust. Good luck.

Jay

I had the AWE prior to the Europipe and I like the EP much better, the AWE was way more drone-y and I did not like the internal design of the muffler. Instead of having perforated pipes and helmholtz resonators, it opened up to a central section with flow directors, like an old school domestic muffler. Lots of people have found that it flows fine, but I was not a fan. The Europipe has a nicer tone.

The AWE was louder than the Milltek, almost as loud as the GMG without the nice exhaust note.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:56 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by strato58 View Post
I guess we can beat this exhaust thing to death..I know Markski's 911 tuning exhaust is good in his build to 900 hp...so i assume at some point that 3" diameter exhaust must come into play...there appears to be many variables and I can only assume that trying to find the "best" exhaust is basically impossible.
Lol. May as well give it a solid beating.....nothing much else going on here at RL lately. And how do you define the worlds best exhaust for this car? Very good question. I guess you could start with one that firstly doesn't drone while sounding good and loud enough, and that has all the features you'd expect for a car like a Porsche.

PS. Also agree on the 3". There surely has to be a point where 3" holds the crown in the higher HP stakes over and above a 2.5.

Originally Posted by Terry Adams View Post
A major benefit of an AM exhaust has been overlooked in this discussion of sound and back pressure and heat shielding:

Turbo lag gone! Well, significantly reduced in my case.There is no point to an extra 20-30 HP/TQ if even the already available 480/505 comes too late to do any good in the driving situation where it is called upon.
Same found here Terry. Lag is way improved now....virtually non existant. So it can only mean the design of the rest of the EP system must be overly compensating for those "large flow restrictive catalytic converters".....I guess one can only imagine just how much better the system would perform with smaller diameter 200 cel cats eh?

Last edited by speed21; 11-05-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:28 AM
  #68  
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We can go on like this forever. No matter how many arguments I bring there will still be some doubt.

We sold many systems, most of them 996 and 997 TT, most of them in UK, Germany and Belgium. And we sold 2 systems in Australia also I will look up the adress .
I saw on 911uk forum reviews. Probably most of our customer aren t forum users.

Let s wait the review from rennlist members who bought a system. I dont want to look like I am overselling this product.

About big pipes and how an exhaust should work
Scavenge is only applicable to naturally aspirated cars. The point of scavenge is to create an instantaneous vacuum at the point of exhaust valve closure, or valve overlap, thus the piston draws more charge (fuel air mix). This is achieved through the momentum of the exhaust discharge, and also through refracting sound waves off a change in cross section, hence stepped primaries in f1, to amplify reverged soundwaves.

Turbo exhausts work in a very different way. Essentially you want to create the highest pressure differential as possible from the exhaust manifold to the post turbo pipe. The common mistake that is made (among most exhaust tuners, and also oem manufacturers) is to assume that a large cross section after the turbo means lower pressure. The fact is that this cross section has to be tuned to create the largest pressure differential. If you take the Bernoulli principal, the principal that the venturii effect is based upon, pressure and velocity of a gas are interchangeable (much like mass and energy) a higher gas velocity results in a lower pressure in that region. Consider the old trick of blowing between two ping pong *****, you would expect that blowing them would move them apart, in fact they are drawn together, this is because the curves of the ping pong ***** accelerates the air flow further, high gas velocity results in a lower pressue in that region according to bernoullies equation. This is also how an aircraft wing works, as well as nebulisers, and many other devices utilising this concept in compressible fluid dynamics. Its also how lotus wiped the floor with everyone in f1 during the late sixties, and then again in the eighties when they introduced the aerofoil floorpan doubling their traction.

In a nut shell the way we get more power from turbo exhausts is by tuning the cross section after the turbo to acheve the lowest pressure possible, in fact vacuum at certain points can be achieved using this principal thus creating greater and quicker turbo spool. Many exhaust tuners just take the hillbilly approach of sticking the biggest pipe they can fit.

When you mount on your car turbo s with an aperture larger than 60mm, yes 2.75 or 3 inch tubing will work better than 2.5 .
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:25 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Chriss_kline View Post
We can go on like this forever. No matter how many arguments I bring there will still be some doubt.
Lets not hear talk of "exit stage left" just yet ok. We can make the time to get to the bottom of it. So long as we all get clarity in what you are on about that's the main thing. After all many here are seeking genuine alternatives to those few brands that people currently have faith and trust in. Why not have yours on that list?

We sold many systems, most of them 996 and 997 TT, most of them in UK, Germany and Belgium. And we sold 2 systems in Australia also I will look up the adress .
I saw on 911uk forum reviews. Probably most of our customer aren t forum users.
That's fine. But more than one users experience would go some way in establishing some credibility rather than the obvious marketing spiels vendors tend to automatically put up as smoke screens.

Let s wait the review from rennlist members who bought a system. I dont want to look like I am overselling this product.
A few here, myself included are looking forward to his review....and anyone else you can muster as well would be appreciated. The more the merrier as they say. In so far as overselling the product, to be frank I think you have gone out on a bit of a long limb making certain claims against well established brands yet are seemingly not prepared to back up your comments in a plausible fashion. Sorry, but that's how it's coming across.

About big pipes and how an exhaust should work
Scavenge is only applicable to naturally aspirated cars. The point of scavenge is to create an instantaneous vacuum at the point of exhaust valve closure, or valve overlap, thus the piston draws more charge (fuel air mix). This is achieved through the momentum of the exhaust discharge, and also through refracting sound waves off a change in cross section, hence stepped primaries in f1, to amplify reverged soundwaves.
Thanks for the explanation but engines/engine parts being my core business, i'm up to date with scavenging effect thanks.

Turbo exhausts work in a very different way. Essentially you want to create the highest pressure differential as possible from the exhaust manifold to the post turbo pipe.
Again, all good here....no stranger to turbocharged engines.

The common mistake that is made (among most exhaust tuners, and also oem manufacturers) is to assume that a large cross section after the turbo means lower pressure. The fact is that this cross section has to be tuned to create the largest pressure differential.
I'm sure every OEM manufacturer and exhaust designer/tuner has their take on who is making the biggest mistakes.......

Still haven't heard why the EP cats are counter productive yet. Lets hear about that.

If you take the Bernoulli principal, the principal that the venturii effect is based upon, pressure and velocity of a gas are interchangeable (much like mass and energy) a higher gas velocity results in a lower pressure in that region.
OK. Please. Enough already with the techno hype. The Bernoulli principle is mainly relevant where carburettors and the likes are concerned where vacuum is utilised but a 997TT exhaust system? I mean really. It's a pressurised environment for gods sakes. Where is the vacuum in a 997tt exhaust system? And even if it (somehow) managed to relieve all the pressure and go the other way to a vacuum environment, who's going to go drilling a hole in an exhaust system for vacuum feed?

Consider the old trick of blowing between two ping pong *****, you would expect that blowing them would move them apart, in fact they are drawn together, this is because the curves of the ping pong ***** accelerates the air flow further, high gas velocity results in a lower pressue in that region according to bernoullies equation. This is also how an aircraft wing works, as well as nebulisers, and many other devices utilising this concept in compressible fluid dynamics. Its also how lotus wiped the floor with everyone in f1 during the late sixties, and then again in the eighties when they introduced the aerofoil floorpan doubling their traction.
Sigh....I was really hoping to hear about 2.5 to 3" pipes and stuff about superflous heat shielding and oversized diameter cats that restrict flow. Can we talk about that?

In a nut shell the way we get more power from turbo exhausts is by tuning the cross section after the turbo to acheve the lowest pressure possible, in fact vacuum at certain points can be achieved using this principal thus creating greater and quicker turbo spool.
OK. Im sure your system is good. But better than the next persons? You aren't convincing me. Personally, I think some user experiences will suffice way better than any more techno babble type jargon. After all many of the members have no idea what you are on about...


Many exhaust tuners just take the hillbilly approach of sticking the biggest pipe they can fit.
LOL. Too funny. C'mon, referring to the competition as a bunch of hillbillies welding big drainpipes together is not nice.

When you mount on your car turbo s with an aperture larger than 60mm, yes 2.75 or 3 inch tubing will work better than 2.5 .
Ok. Great. Now you are getting back onto the beaten path. Now can we please hear why? Some of us here are genuinely interested

Last edited by speed21; 11-05-2012 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:08 AM
  #70  
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Apologies, we didnt want to offend other exhaust fabricators.
We agree that EP exhaust are making good products, far better than many aftermarket brands.

I just wanted to give the insights of how we design and build our exhaust.

Thank you for your interest. If you want to continue our debate I am more than happy to do it via PM or email.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:54 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Chriss_kline View Post
Apologies, we didnt want to offend other exhaust fabricators.
We agree that EP exhaust are making good products, far better than many aftermarket brands.

I just wanted to give the insights of how we design and build our exhaust.

Thank you for your interest. If you want to continue our debate I am more than happy to do it via PM or email.
I'm sure the "offenders" can handle it lol. There was some truth in what you said and I would concur very few appear to get it anywhere near where it needs to be for this car. And if (our) debate can't continue on the open forum for the benefit of the RL members then i see no point continuing behind closed doors. I honestly don't want to give you a hard time, just get to the bottom of what you have stated about the cats, the pipe diameters and the shielding.... Anyway i'm sure your system is one of the better ones out there going by your claims and dedicated approach and I look forward to reading some user reviews.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:09 AM
  #72  
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Go speed go!

There's nothing wrong with asking the hard questions, some of us techno heads want to know the scientific reasons behind products, other just want to know they are the best or good value!

If I was a manufacturer of a product that I knew was brilliant, I would have my product pitted against a market leader of sorts and publish the results.

Chriss, why should somebody consider purchasing your product instead of the well established and highly regarded Europipe?

Cheers,

drvik
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:31 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Chriss_kline View Post
I dont want to look like I am overselling this product.
To me you are way past that point. When I read your posts it oozes marketing and more marketing. The only difference I see between a paying sponsor and you is that you are not (paying that is).

I really have a hard time with company's discrediting other products. And this 'I know so much more than anybody else' approach is rather annoying. Your 'explanation' why you do not need heat shields is also strange to say the least.

I am sure you're a nice guy and all but why not let the end users do the talking like Paul suggested. If your system is a good as you claim this should come all natural and soon these boards will be flooded with happy Kline customers.

If you want to continue to use these boards as a platform for publicity than you should become a sponsor, did you see the visitor message you got from Bob ?
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:52 PM
  #74  
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I always wonder about products that claim increase in power above what the original manufacturer designed. Next time you folks think about exhaust systems, attend a Grand Am event. Walk to the pit area and ask them what they use on the "race cars". The technicians when not busy, will be happy to tell you. I have and if you do, you will be very surprised. Mind boggling!
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:30 PM
  #75  
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Well i have some first hand experience now with the 911 tuning 3" race exhaust....my very first impression was that its not nearly as loud as I expected...3" with 100 cell cats i though would scream...its pretty mellow at idle. It does get louder under throttle though. Actually has a really nice sound at wot..car jumps to redline in a hurry...but i guess it always did. No cel at this point....tune is next. That should bring it to life for sure...but i have to wait for $$$$
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