Update on tuning 997tt Gen II
#16
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A real ****ty EFI tune can cause that sort of failure.
I wonder if there was as much controversy when Porsche developed the M64. And it would be a crying shame if Porsche, a company that touts its successes on motorsports, can't build a reliable engine, while Honda or Nissan can.
///Michael
#17
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Porsche site shows
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/91...l/?gtabindex=2
Click on drive the click on integrated dry sump
then they talk of:
Integrated dry-sump lubrication ensures a reliable supply of oil even when a sporty driving style is adopted. It also has additional cooling functions. The oil tank is located in the engine, thereby eliminating the need for an external oil tank.
Isn't that a seperate oil tank but built into the motor.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review
They also show:"oil reservoir at the bottom of the engine, although separated from the crankcase. "
The elaborate dry-sump-lubrication system, with its external tank, has also been changed to the standard 911 design with an integrated oil reservoir at the bottom of the engine, although separated from the crankcase. However, in the Turbo’s case, six—rather than four—oil-scavenge pumps are used to return oil to this reservoir because the two turbochargers each require a dedicated oil return
To me it sounds like a dry sump tank built into the engine seperate from the crankcase not a wet sump.How do you guys take the statement of how its designed if tank is seperate from the crankcase?
#19
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References should be specifically cited. According to "Car and Driver" in the January 2010 issue (page 41) "the elaborate dry-sump lubrication system has been replaced by a simpler version used on the standard 911s." As clearly pointed out in the preceding sentence, the dry-sump system has been replaced. It logically follows if the dry sump has been replaced, then the replacement is not a dry-sump system or it is not elaborate. Why is this so difficult to understand? The rest is pure marketing.
As an iconoclast, another concern of mine was raised by "Car and Driver" in the October 2009 issue. Simply:
"Rather than the Nikasil hard-surface coating used on the cylinder walls of previous Turbos, this one relies on the hard surface produced by etching the Alusil block casting. Although Porsche engineers cringe when we say it, this is the metallurgy that debuted on the Chevrolet Vega about 40 years ago and has since been perfected on many German engines." Let's hope it has been perfected. Perhaps the engineers will comment.
I do not have a dog in this fight. Unlike many who post on this board and on others, I presently own a 2008 Turbo 6speed coupe (also owned for a very brief period a 2007 Turbo Tip); several years ago, I placed a deposit and reservation for the first Turbo S allocated to the dealer. At that time, the demise of the GT1 was unknown. Will I order the S in February? I plan to. Will I keep the 2008? Unless the new Turbo is heads and shoulders superior in performance to the 2008, yes. The 2011 will, however, be available.
As an iconoclast, another concern of mine was raised by "Car and Driver" in the October 2009 issue. Simply:
"Rather than the Nikasil hard-surface coating used on the cylinder walls of previous Turbos, this one relies on the hard surface produced by etching the Alusil block casting. Although Porsche engineers cringe when we say it, this is the metallurgy that debuted on the Chevrolet Vega about 40 years ago and has since been perfected on many German engines." Let's hope it has been perfected. Perhaps the engineers will comment.
I do not have a dog in this fight. Unlike many who post on this board and on others, I presently own a 2008 Turbo 6speed coupe (also owned for a very brief period a 2007 Turbo Tip); several years ago, I placed a deposit and reservation for the first Turbo S allocated to the dealer. At that time, the demise of the GT1 was unknown. Will I order the S in February? I plan to. Will I keep the 2008? Unless the new Turbo is heads and shoulders superior in performance to the 2008, yes. The 2011 will, however, be available.
#20
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References should be specifically cited. According to "Car and Driver" in the January 2010 issue (page 41) "the elaborate dry-sump lubrication system has been replaced by a simpler version used on the standard 911s." As clearly pointed out in the preceding sentence, the dry-sump system has been replaced. It logically follows if the dry sump has been replaced, then the replacement is not a dry-sump system or it is not elaborate. Why is this so difficult to understand? The rest is pure marketing..
Canadian magazine says all new dry sump
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2009/1...-911-turbo.htm
The heart of the 2010 Turbo is an all-new dry sump 3.8-litre bi-turbo direct injection flat-six that makes 500 horsepower and 479 pound-feet of torque (up 20 hp and 22 lb.-ft. from last year’s 3.6-litre Turbo). Direct injection allows for a substantial increase in the compression ratio from 9.0:1 to 9.8:1. That, along with a slight decrease in boost pressure makes for more linear throttle response across the rev range.
As an iconoclast, another concern of mine was raised by "Car and Driver" in the October 2009 issue. Simply:
"Rather than the Nikasil hard-surface coating used on the cylinder walls of previous Turbos, this one relies on the hard surface produced by etching the Alusil block casting. Although Porsche engineers cringe when we say it, this is the metallurgy that debuted on the Chevrolet Vega about 40 years ago and has since been perfected on many German engines." Let's hope it has been perfected. Perhaps the engineers will comment...
"Rather than the Nikasil hard-surface coating used on the cylinder walls of previous Turbos, this one relies on the hard surface produced by etching the Alusil block casting. Although Porsche engineers cringe when we say it, this is the metallurgy that debuted on the Chevrolet Vega about 40 years ago and has since been perfected on many German engines." Let's hope it has been perfected. Perhaps the engineers will comment...
I do not have a dog in this fight. Unlike many who post on this board and on others, I presently own a 2008 Turbo 6speed coupe (also owned for a very brief period a 2007 Turbo Tip); several years ago, I placed a deposit and reservation for the first Turbo S allocated to the dealer. At that time, the demise of the GT1 was unknown. Will I order the S in February? I plan to. Will I keep the 2008? Unless the new Turbo is heads and shoulders superior in performance to the 2008, yes. The 2011 will, however, be available.
If oil is still seperate from the oil pan but is built into the engine case contained seperate in its own compartment and the only way out is being pumped out into the oil pan then its still a dry sump only difference is instead of the tank being external now its internal.Is that the way the setup is?
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 12-25-2009 at 10:48 PM.
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So it follows that my old small block chevy with a windage tray separating the oil sump is also an integrated dry sump. If it has an oil pan it's a wet sump, I don't care how you spin it.
#22
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If the new motor is designed with a compartment that is enclosed within the case and uses a pump to pump the oil into the pan then its a dry sump.It could also be a internal pump that storse oil in it also would have to see the design but anyway its stored seperate is dry sump they took the time to save weight out of the car at same time.I know windage trays are stock on alot of motors and have nothing to do with a pumping system they are only trays that keep oil from splashing around in the oil pan.
I am talking if the motor has a built in compartment enclosed within the block in place of an external canister and so far noone has shown an internal cutaway if that is what the new block is all about at least if they call it a dry sump thats how I would picture it.
The best to explain it is at:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=322
Four-stroke engines are lubricated by oil which is pumped into various bearings and thereafter allowed to drain to the base of the engine. In most production cars, which use a wet sump system, this oil is simply collected in a three to seven litre capacity pan at the base of the engine, known as the oil pan where it is pumped back up to the bearings by the oil pump, internal to the engine.
In a dry sump, the oil still falls to the base of the engine, but rather than being collected into an oil pan, it is pumped into another reservoir by one or more scavenger pumps, run by belts from the front of the crankshaft. Oil is then pumped from this reservoir to the bearings of the engine by the pressure pump. Typical dry sump systems have the pressure pump and scavenger pumps "stacked up", so that one pulley at the front of the system can run as many pumps as desired, just by adding another to the back of the stack.
No matter how you look at it a dry sump system can still use an oil pan its how the oil is collected and circulated to it.Also there may be some that use low oil pan and that would be in racing where there is no ground clearance to spare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump
"the oil pan can be much smaller in a dry sump system"
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 12-26-2009 at 03:14 PM.
#23
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References should be specifically cited. According to "Car and Driver" in the January 2010 issue (page 41) "the elaborate dry-sump lubrication system has been replaced by a simpler version used on the standard 911s." As clearly pointed out in the preceding sentence, the dry-sump system has been replaced. It logically follows if the dry sump has been replaced, then the replacement is not a dry-sump system or it is not elaborate. Why is this so difficult to understand? The rest is pure marketing.
If it looks like a duck and does everything like a duck, but is from Mars, then is it still a duck? Refer to the Mobil vs Castrol lawsuit regarding what constitutes the usage of the term "synthetic."
///Michael
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A winday trays are not a seperate compartment they are only a stamped piece of metal bollted to the main caps of the crank if has nothing to do with an oiling system of how it is pumped.Just like a scrapper is sometimes bolted off the oil pan internally that oil keeps oil splash down that along with a windage tray has nothing to do with if a motor is called a dry sump or wet sump.
If the new motor is designed with a compartment that is enclosed within the case and uses a pump to pump the oil into the pan then its a dry sump.It could also be a internal pump that storse oil in it also would have to see the design but anyway its stored seperate is dry sump they took the time to save weight out of the car at same time.I know windage trays are stock on alot of motors and have nothing to do with a pumping system they are only trays that keep oil from splashing around in the oil pan.
I am talking if the motor has a built in compartment enclosed within the block in place of an external canister and so far noone has shown an internal cutaway if that is what the new block is all about at least if they call it a dry sump thats how I would picture it.
The best to explain it is at:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=322
Four-stroke engines are lubricated by oil which is pumped into various bearings and thereafter allowed to drain to the base of the engine. In most production cars, which use a wet sump system, this oil is simply collected in a three to seven litre capacity pan at the base of the engine, known as the oil pan where it is pumped back up to the bearings by the oil pump, internal to the engine.
In a dry sump, the oil still falls to the base of the engine, but rather than being collected into an oil pan, it is pumped into another reservoir by one or more scavenger pumps, run by belts from the front of the crankshaft. Oil is then pumped from this reservoir to the bearings of the engine by the pressure pump. Typical dry sump systems have the pressure pump and scavenger pumps "stacked up", so that one pulley at the front of the system can run as many pumps as desired, just by adding another to the back of the stack.
No matter how you look at it a dry sump system can still use an oil pan its how the oil is collected and circulated to it.Also there may be some that use low oil pan and that would be in racing where there is no ground clearance to spare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump
"the oil pan can be much smaller in a dry sump system"
If the new motor is designed with a compartment that is enclosed within the case and uses a pump to pump the oil into the pan then its a dry sump.It could also be a internal pump that storse oil in it also would have to see the design but anyway its stored seperate is dry sump they took the time to save weight out of the car at same time.I know windage trays are stock on alot of motors and have nothing to do with a pumping system they are only trays that keep oil from splashing around in the oil pan.
I am talking if the motor has a built in compartment enclosed within the block in place of an external canister and so far noone has shown an internal cutaway if that is what the new block is all about at least if they call it a dry sump thats how I would picture it.
The best to explain it is at:
http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/kb.php?aid=322
Four-stroke engines are lubricated by oil which is pumped into various bearings and thereafter allowed to drain to the base of the engine. In most production cars, which use a wet sump system, this oil is simply collected in a three to seven litre capacity pan at the base of the engine, known as the oil pan where it is pumped back up to the bearings by the oil pump, internal to the engine.
In a dry sump, the oil still falls to the base of the engine, but rather than being collected into an oil pan, it is pumped into another reservoir by one or more scavenger pumps, run by belts from the front of the crankshaft. Oil is then pumped from this reservoir to the bearings of the engine by the pressure pump. Typical dry sump systems have the pressure pump and scavenger pumps "stacked up", so that one pulley at the front of the system can run as many pumps as desired, just by adding another to the back of the stack.
No matter how you look at it a dry sump system can still use an oil pan its how the oil is collected and circulated to it.Also there may be some that use low oil pan and that would be in racing where there is no ground clearance to spare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump
"the oil pan can be much smaller in a dry sump system"
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Take time to disassemble a M96 integrated dry sump motor sometime and you will see similarities. Except on the non x51 motors, the windage tray or sump guard was plastic, aluminum on the X51 and the motorsports oiling kits. The sump guard does not isolate the engine internals completely, this is obvious when you remove the oil pan (or whatever you wish to call it). Sadly, the m96 required the oiling kit for track use, a feat the dry sumps can do all day long.
BTW Wikpedia is hardly a peer reviewed source, I wouldn't quote it.
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Last edited by TT Gasman; 12-27-2009 at 12:26 AM.
#25
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I was being a little tongue in cheek, Sorry. I have built many race motors in my time, so I don't need any re-education
. Our windage trays were elaborate Ed Hamburger units that did a good job keeping the oil off the crank at high rpm (9-10K). We also used trap doors and all kinds of things to keep the oil in the pan on hard, high rpm wheel standing launches. Still, it wasn't a dry sump.
Take time to disassemble a M96 integrated dry sump motor sometime and you will see similarities. Except on the non x51 motors, the windage tray or sump guard was plastic, aluminum on the X51 and the motorsports oiling kits. The sump guard does not isolate the engine internals completely, this is obvious when you remove the oil pan (or whatever you wish to call it). Sadly, the m96 required the oiling kit for track use, a feat the dry sumps can do all day long.
BTW Wikpedia is hardly a peer reviewed source, I wouldn't quote it.![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Take time to disassemble a M96 integrated dry sump motor sometime and you will see similarities. Except on the non x51 motors, the windage tray or sump guard was plastic, aluminum on the X51 and the motorsports oiling kits. The sump guard does not isolate the engine internals completely, this is obvious when you remove the oil pan (or whatever you wish to call it). Sadly, the m96 required the oiling kit for track use, a feat the dry sumps can do all day long.
BTW Wikpedia is hardly a peer reviewed source, I wouldn't quote it.
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![hiha](https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
So on the new car what do you think they are using to make their claims?A good design would be an enclosed tank built into the block somehow not sure if they would go that far.
I was almost going joke about some quoteing Wikpedia when using it lol
Last edited by inactiveuser1; 12-27-2009 at 01:15 AM.
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SSIA, now that brings back memories! Our good buddy and engine builder (Tony Shaffer, Day Automotive ) won the US Nationals with their '67 Camaro, talk about trick that thing really pushed the envelope, but that's what you had to do. We ran a 388 stroker small block with Brodix heads and one huge 4 bbl that was good for 600 hp and Super Gas back in the day!
Re the new car, I think it's an improvement over prior integrated dry sumps, but still a lot of marketing speak, cause deep down it's still a wet sump. Which is probably just fine on the 911, but not the top shelf Turbo. They should have never messed with anything other than a GT1 based motor in the Turbo.
Re the new car, I think it's an improvement over prior integrated dry sumps, but still a lot of marketing speak, cause deep down it's still a wet sump. Which is probably just fine on the 911, but not the top shelf Turbo. They should have never messed with anything other than a GT1 based motor in the Turbo.
#27
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SSIA, now that brings back memories! Our good buddy and engine builder (Tony Shaffer, Day Automotive ) won the US Nationals with their '67 Camaro, talk about trick that thing really pushed the envelope, but that's what you had to do. We ran a 388 stroker small block with Brodix heads and one huge 4 bbl that was good for 600 hp and Super Gas back in the day!
Re the new car, I think it's an improvement over prior integrated dry sumps, but still a lot of marketing speak, cause deep down it's still a wet sump. Which is probably just fine on the 911, but not the top shelf Turbo. They should have never messed with anything other than a GT1 based motor in the Turbo.
Re the new car, I think it's an improvement over prior integrated dry sumps, but still a lot of marketing speak, cause deep down it's still a wet sump. Which is probably just fine on the 911, but not the top shelf Turbo. They should have never messed with anything other than a GT1 based motor in the Turbo.
The lowest rod ratio I have seen was 400chevy of 1.48 but there might be lower.Know thats off topic but good to see someone that remembers the older drag days.
Back to the new motor:
Thought I seen somewhere,that on the gt1 block nothing was setup for direct fuel injection so thats also why the newer block,not sure if thats true or not?Seems like for racing thou you would want something where you can exchange sleeves instead of boring the block out as once you bore so much then what more $ for new block?
#28
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Latest from the engine dyno.......
Following on from Porsche engineers telling them "this engine is not for you" RS Tuning got a willing customer with a new DFi turbo.
The engine broke a conrod at the 550hp level, I don't know the protocol for the engine dyno testing but it is quite rigorous with 3 days testing....
So the weak points are the conrods, pistons and head gasket.
RS is re-engineering this dead engine for the customer who has a nice shiny new 997tt.2 sitting high with no motor![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
They are making it 4 litre, special boring process, having different head gaskets made and Carrillo rods - They are not over cofident that the re-engineered lump will last very long..... It seems the new engine will need quite a lot of development to become reliable when tuned..
Following on from Porsche engineers telling them "this engine is not for you" RS Tuning got a willing customer with a new DFi turbo.
The engine broke a conrod at the 550hp level, I don't know the protocol for the engine dyno testing but it is quite rigorous with 3 days testing....
So the weak points are the conrods, pistons and head gasket.
RS is re-engineering this dead engine for the customer who has a nice shiny new 997tt.2 sitting high with no motor
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
They are making it 4 litre, special boring process, having different head gaskets made and Carrillo rods - They are not over cofident that the re-engineered lump will last very long..... It seems the new engine will need quite a lot of development to become reliable when tuned..
#29
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Great insight once again, thanks Toby!
Our Gen1 engines may be more sought after now because of this. I will probably go from my 544 PS kit to the 624 PS kit at some point in the future. It's great to have that option!
Our Gen1 engines may be more sought after now because of this. I will probably go from my 544 PS kit to the 624 PS kit at some point in the future. It's great to have that option!
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They also confirmed that the new GT2RS is coming with the Mezger engine....