ignacio

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ignacio said:
does your 997 turbo skid out when you lift off the throttle?

several auto magazines have reported this tendency is back in the 997 tt after being tamed in the 996 tt. this seems like a giant step backwards to me.

what gives?


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I agree, it is a step backwards and it is true.
I really don't know the reason for that, maybe they screwed up, maybe they didn't understand what customers actually asked for or maybe they actually wanted to slow people down (as ridiculous this may sound).
Also don't forget that there is also the 997 GT3, GT3RS and now the GT2. Judging by the test numbers from various reviews, especially when the 997 Turbo uses semi-slicks, another reason for this "bad" setup may be the fact that Porsche didn't want the 997 Turbo to "destroy" the inner house competition and make them look bad. Who would buy a GT3, a "racecar for the street", anymore if the 997 Turbo would be faster on the track?

I know, I know...lots of speculations but the truth is: the current PTM setup of the 997 Turbo isn't satisfactory at all. I also doubt that Porsche is going to do something about it.

TT Surgeon

I agree with RC, you'll notice that all the head to head testing is always done with street tires on the turbo and R's on the other car. That is not mere chance, Porsche knows very well what they're doing.
They can't have the TT spanking, and I mean spanking, the GT3 and RS, how many would they sell? Probably less than they have so far. When they did put cups on a tt, you got a staggering 7:40 on the 'ring, that's a lifetime faster than either '3'.
After having mine on the track with street tires, if I were to put cups on it with an aggressive alignment, nobody would touch it in the straights or the twisties, it's that good. Forget the' unsafe at high speed' crap, the car is rock stable at 150 mph lap after lap, yes it is rear biased (unlike the 996tt), but that's a good thing. Just takes some getting used to, completely different animal on the track than a C4S/TT 996 platform, even with cups and the x73. I know, I tracked my C4S extensively with just that setup.

Terry Adams

Not that I will track my car, but coming from a 993 2S, this is good to hear. Sounds like Porsche dialed in exactly what their customers were asking for.

TT Surgeon

Maybe that's the issue some guys are having, too much of a good thing. I find it closer to a 993TT than the 996tt platform.

TT Gasman

Yeah baby!
If you like the rwd 99x plarform you'll love the 997tt

gradyex

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The 997 Turbo comes with an entirely new AWD set up much different from any AWD cars it produced in the past. Its a fun and extremely easy car to drive on the street and far from "boring" which can be a common attribute of AWD cars where power is distributed more evenly front to rear as needed for traction. Toss in Variable steering and PASM to the mix and you have quite a sophisticated automobile. For the most part, for 80% of its drivers the car feels like its on rails and can do no wrong. Push the car on the street past that point, and the words to describe what it feels like are: "squirmy" "spongy" "nervous at the limit", etc . I have confirmed this with many 997 Turbo owners that would rather not speak out. Most are experimenting with spacers, springs, coilovers, sway bars, etc with mixed results. The issue can only really be addressed by Porsche. That does not make this car a "bad" car......to the contrary! Its fun to drive and very rewarding, but there is room for improvement. How many first year cars that you know of that didn't get better with each passing year? Its just the nature of the beast and for me the 997 Turbo is still a keeper!

TX 911

Or, maybe Ruf?

TT Surgeon

Gradyex, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I have pushed my car hard on the street and track with street tires and out of the box alignment. I have experienced none of this 'nervousness' that folks are describing at high speed, maybe 150 at Pocono's not fast enough, I'll let you know after WG. Seriously, and I mean no disrespect, but I assume I've pushed mine a little closer to the limit than you have(track), and just blasting it on public roads really isn't the same. The only time it was a little floaty at all was in non-sport mode with too much air in the tires on the first few laps. I think it was also, partly, me getting used to the heavily RW biased AWD system coming from the 996/C4S/TT platform. Now, that car was very floaty/nervous at speed with the stock US dumbed down suspension, the X73 transformed it 180 degrees. But the 997TT, in sport, is significantly better stone stock, very close to the X73 in fact.
The car is not perfect, it could benefit from a little lowering with proper shocks( ala X73, which was a significant improvement on the 996TT/4S) which would allow a lot more -camber up front. Street tires are not ideal at the track either, easily remedied. Tire pressure can be a factor as well. If you have 50#'s of air in the tires, -.2 or less - camber and cold street tires on an uneven surface I could see where it might be considered 'floaty'.
But, honestly the car's not nearly as bad as some would have you believe, it's not a sorted out track rat, but I wouldn't want that as a DD either, jmo of course.
Cheers
Chris

1AS

TTSurgeon makes me wonder if the magazine testers continued to modify air pressures as the tires warmed. Anybody who has tracked a tt knows that the rears build heat and pressure at at alarming rate, and need substantial bleeding. Perhaps they unintentionally wound up with 60 psi in the rears (easy to do), and found the car nervous, as it was probably running on about 3 inches of tread. Just a thought, but I have read that the testers strictly adhere to factory recommended infrlation pressures.
BTW, I have often wondered why the inflation pressures are so high. Could it be the need to keep the rubber on the rims for cold tire standing starts?AS

TT Surgeon

When I went to the track I had it at the rec pressure, after the first session the rears were at 62#, fronts 45#( I started at 46 and 36psi resp as per spec).
I think the rec pressures are high due to the physical traits of the 19" rim and short sidewall.

eclou

36/46 heating up to 45/62? That is insane. I run 33/39 on the street. At the track I started at 27/29 on my Hoosiers and let them heat up to about 36/38, which is about where the pyrometer showed even temps all the way across the tread. At 62# I am surprised that your tires did not start to chunk or delaminate let alone feather the outer blocks.

AAHTT

I run 33/39 cold on the street and that's what porsche recommends for partial load (up to 2 people, no luggage) if I am not mistaken.
Track tires like hoosiers require even less pressure like eclou said.
I am glad you didn't have any incidents running 60's at 150mph, I would definitely start lower and get a pyrometer to check temps across the tread after each run.

TT Surgeon

46/36 was hot right of the highway into the track, cold it is about 40/33. Just shows you how much hotter they can get on the track.

ALPINE_997

In regards to Gradyex's comments - I "had" the wandering feel on the highway at speeds as low as 100mph. I have stated such and so have several others. Gradyex has this problem and I have been trying to help him with it as I am sorting it out and making small adjustments here and there to fix this wandering and squirmy feel. I have tracked cars in the past and not since 1994 have I had a car that hasn't had some form of suspension modification from the mild upgrade of springs to the track setup of coilovers, sways, plates and track tires. Perhaps I am not as track orientated as you with the Porsche but I have enough experience to know when a car is being pushed and at what limits. Since my new alignment its a night and day difference not because of lower stance which helps some but more of the fact that I went with a more aggressive street alignment.

I have played with air pressure, nitrogen in the tires, to even posting my alignment specs in which Eclou even made a comment on the negative camber being high but he did understand after a response that it was dialed in that way without weights being added while his alignment was made with weights in the car. I am trying to dial my car in for the street which doesn't always translate into a track alignment spec.

I have tracked at least 5 people who have made comments on the uneasy feeling at highway speeds. On the smooth track surfaced this translates into a better feel and of course traction due to less debris and more evenness.

I think the highway wandering and the pogo feel is in fact very much alive in the Turbo's regardless of alignment.

Of course my springs are H&R - I know this isn't "X73" so some Pro Porsche die hards will not put it on their cars. But it hasn't come down to price - it comes down to my sense of cost/benefit. I could spend 300 dollars more Champion Springs by H&R or I could save that money and use the same spring from H&R. I figured if it was horrible I would at least know and only spent $290.00 on a set of springs and it didn't work out.

TT Surgeon as far as your car is perfect from factory with factory alignment. I wish you the best on the track but I would like to see videos of you pushing your car around a slightly uneven corner on the street and you tell us that its the same feel and that it is not nervous.

Being a street racer in my youth I can tell you that I will push a car hard when I can and I am not afraid. I am not as confident with this car pushed in stock form. My street/track E46 M3 inspired confidence and I would go as far as my M5 with GC Coilovers and sways made me feel comfortable. But without the new alignment and springs on the Turbo - I wouldn't push it.

FYI - I have pushed it hard enough to drift the car around a corner before PSM kicked in. But only with the springs installed because before it didn't make me feel that I could. Maybe it would have been okay but thats not the point.

eclou

I think one of the things we all have to remember is that the sensation of speed in this car is very deceptive. Hitting 90-100mph on a interchange ramp (in "Mexico" of course) happens without so much as a clue of your velocity. In some of my other cars 70mph on the same ramp feels like 120mph. It is true that by comparison my GT3 does feel a bit more secure on the same Mexican ramps but the TT hardly feels like it is going to jump over the guardrail.