Got my Car and Driver and R8 beats TT!
05-31-2007, 09:38 PM
#17
Drifting
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Originally Posted by Chris R.
Since very few of you drive at the "ring" the times there are kinda pointless it seems.
The "subjective bull****" is exactly what makes a 911 "feel" good. There are faster cars with a better design but subjectively it's great....and so it goes for the R8.
Also, since few people who are going to buy a 997TT or an R8 are pro drivers, why should they test with one? If the average good driver (DE stuff, maybe an instructor) can go faster in the R8, what makes you think that YOU (any of you who that applies to) can do better in the TT? If I'm in an R8 and you are in a TT (and let's say we drive about the same) then guess who's waiting for a signal to pass?
While i think that the R8 is a wonderful car (from what it looks like and seems to perform like), I don;t think that it will adversly affect Porsche's sales TOO badly.
Anyway, I think it was a cool test and while the TT is clearly the faster car in the straights, many of us like the corner stuff too!
*Flame suit on*
The "subjective bull****" is exactly what makes a 911 "feel" good. There are faster cars with a better design but subjectively it's great....and so it goes for the R8.
Also, since few people who are going to buy a 997TT or an R8 are pro drivers, why should they test with one? If the average good driver (DE stuff, maybe an instructor) can go faster in the R8, what makes you think that YOU (any of you who that applies to) can do better in the TT? If I'm in an R8 and you are in a TT (and let's say we drive about the same) then guess who's waiting for a signal to pass?
While i think that the R8 is a wonderful car (from what it looks like and seems to perform like), I don;t think that it will adversly affect Porsche's sales TOO badly.
Anyway, I think it was a cool test and while the TT is clearly the faster car in the straights, many of us like the corner stuff too!
*Flame suit on*
The only way I'm gonna have to give your R8 a pass is if I have to park the TT
05-31-2007, 11:53 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Chris R.
Since very few of you drive at the "ring" the times there are kinda pointless it seems.
The "subjective bull****" is exactly what makes a 911 "feel" good. There are faster cars with a better design but subjectively it's great....and so it goes for the R8.
Also, since few people who are going to buy a 997TT or an R8 are pro drivers, why should they test with one? If the average good driver (DE stuff, maybe an instructor) can go faster in the R8, what makes you think that YOU (any of you who that applies to) can do better in the TT? If I'm in an R8 and you are in a TT (and let's say we drive about the same) then guess who's waiting for a signal to pass?
While i think that the R8 is a wonderful car (from what it looks like and seems to perform like), I don;t think that it will adversly affect Porsche's sales TOO badly.
Anyway, I think it was a cool test and while the TT is clearly the faster car in the straights, many of us like the corner stuff too!
*Flame suit on*
The "subjective bull****" is exactly what makes a 911 "feel" good. There are faster cars with a better design but subjectively it's great....and so it goes for the R8.
Also, since few people who are going to buy a 997TT or an R8 are pro drivers, why should they test with one? If the average good driver (DE stuff, maybe an instructor) can go faster in the R8, what makes you think that YOU (any of you who that applies to) can do better in the TT? If I'm in an R8 and you are in a TT (and let's say we drive about the same) then guess who's waiting for a signal to pass?
While i think that the R8 is a wonderful car (from what it looks like and seems to perform like), I don;t think that it will adversly affect Porsche's sales TOO badly.
Anyway, I think it was a cool test and while the TT is clearly the faster car in the straights, many of us like the corner stuff too!
*Flame suit on*
It has absolutely nothing to do with the times I or that matter the avg. buyer can attain.
06-01-2007, 12:54 AM
#21
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Just to give people not familiar with Willow Springs an idea of what sort of times these are, here's a video of 3 laps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shbCxmm9184
The first full lap is the fastest, about what they did in the 911. The second lap (where the driver, clearly a complete hack, had a feline moment around turn 4) is the slowest, about what they did in the Aston.
The car in the video is an 18 year old economy car with lowering springs and shocks. It was running on 2 year old heat-cycled-to-death street tires. With a header and air filter it made ~105whp, but probably well under 100 at Willow's altitude. The headwind on the long front straight that day (coincidentally from OTC '04) was so strong the car would only pick up about 400rpm the whole way down. Flat-out all the way through turn 2, exit speed would be LOWER than entry speed due to the hill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shbCxmm9184
The first full lap is the fastest, about what they did in the 911. The second lap (where the driver, clearly a complete hack, had a feline moment around turn 4) is the slowest, about what they did in the Aston.
The car in the video is an 18 year old economy car with lowering springs and shocks. It was running on 2 year old heat-cycled-to-death street tires. With a header and air filter it made ~105whp, but probably well under 100 at Willow's altitude. The headwind on the long front straight that day (coincidentally from OTC '04) was so strong the car would only pick up about 400rpm the whole way down. Flat-out all the way through turn 2, exit speed would be LOWER than entry speed due to the hill.
06-01-2007, 03:10 AM
#22
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Lately there are lots of cars that are catching up with Porsches....Dodge neons faster than boxsters, corvetes same or even faster than 997 TT on track and street....there used to be a big gap between Porsche and the wrest of the cars....Porsche used to set the standarts… now everyone catches up and passes in no time...Porsche needs to do some serious improvements on their new cars or the price will not justify the car anymore and Porsche will not be Porsche anymore.
06-01-2007, 09:50 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by eclou
That should put some perspective on how "representative" the C&D track times are
In the stock class (with R-compound tires) and we are still talking about a 500hp Viper: (He turned a marvelous 1:34.98 in a stock coupe.)
While I admit that these times are not great, we don;t know the condition of the track on that day. They were also running on the stock street tires which makes a pretty large difference in terms of time.
You have to remember that if you get a "pro" 911 driver it will surely beat the time laid out by the R8 but then you would have to have a similar pro drive the R8....which I bet would leave us back to the start of this conversation.
997TT's rock but the new kid on the block has some good moves and looks good doing it. Give it some credit!
Oh and just for ****s and giggles, take a look at the times I found for 100hp Honda CR-X's:
Civic - Willow Springs
Driver/Date Hot Lap/ AMB Tire Engine Suspension Weight incl. driver
1. Don Mock 1:36.5 - AMB Toyo Proxies
(shaved) Progress competition shocks and bars 2170
Sponsors are Superior Brake & Alignment of Santa Barbara, The Progress Group, Balistek Designs
2. Mr. Apex 1:39.38 HL Kumho V700 2350
3. Dave Pratte - AMB 1:40.515 - AMB Yoko A032 Integra B18C Tein RA 2040 w/o driver
OTC lap time. Integra B18C engine with Toda cams and pistons, head work, ITR tranny with LSD, Spoon header, J's Racing intake, Skunk2 intake manifold, an a Hondata ecu controller, Tein RA coilovers with Type R brakes, Carbotech XP pads, a chromoly cage, gutted interior. First session ever on track, then car broke. Driver profile.
4. Frank Lin 11-01 1:43.x stop watch Falken Azenis Stock 135 hp SOHC VTEC Skunk2 coilover, KYB shocks, 24mmm/19mm swaybars 2200
06-01-2007, 10:02 AM
#24
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Certainly the R8 is a well handling car. My point is that publishing an article claiming it is 3 seconds faster than a TT on a 2.5 mile course is incredulous, especially when the drivers cannot lap faster than an amateur driver in a 89 Civic with 380 less HP on a windy day. It would be far more telling if skilled drivers tested the cars and turned laps in the low 1:30ish range.
Would it make sense to base the performance of high fidelity audio equipment using 96 kbps mp3's as reference material?
Would it make sense to base the performance of high fidelity audio equipment using 96 kbps mp3's as reference material?
06-01-2007, 10:11 AM
#25
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^ agree with Gene, they knew the results they wanted before they even went to the track, the r8 is the new darling of the automotive world. That being said, I think it's a great car, a significant step up for audi, but a TT killer it ain't.
06-02-2007, 05:41 AM
#26
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Saw 5 R8's on the road in the past five days both here in Germany and in Rome. While it looks good the R8 with RS4 motor has no presence, nothing to set it apart from the other S/RS Audi's on a audible note, IMHO. The fit and finish of the car though is excellent and the interior is set out in a lovely manner.
06-04-2007, 08:46 PM
#28
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If I'm not too tall for the higher HP R8 then I'll probably be switching or getting into one as well. I love the styling of Audi, especially the interior layout. I always loved the RS4 too.
06-05-2007, 02:38 PM
#29
Instructor
Does anyone know whether or not the Turbo that was used in the C&D comparison had the "axle-differential lock" option? Would the presence or absence of LSD contribute to the authors' handling complaints?