Beating a dead horse - ceramics versus steel
12-02-2006, 07:19 PM
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Beating a dead horse - ceramics versus steel
Folks-
I can see both sides of the discussion. The only thing that irritated me was some young 'whipper-snapper' saying that Colm and I were overeducated and underpaid - I founded and sold 2 companies for a large profit, I have found that as I mature, I just tend to be more careful about my money.
I also liked Frayed's input for more data (as well as his avatar - I look like Notle most of the time).
Here are some probably irrelevant data:
Porsche SuperCup and Carrea Cup 2007 GT Rules on brakes:
Brakes
The braking system may be replaced by any system from
the Porsche range and can be chosen freely within the
following parameters:
• Max. brake disc diameter 380 mm
• On the front axle, max. 6 piston brake calliper
• On the rear axle, max. 4 piston brake calliper
• Max. 2 brake pads per brake calliper
• Brake discs and rotors must be of metallic material.
• It must be a 2 circuit braking system.
There are no regulations governing brake ventilation on
the front axle.
SCO LeMans (including American Le Mans) - 2007 LM GT Rules
12.2 - Brake rotors must be made of steel
12.2.1 - Brake callipers shall be made from aluminium materials
(elasticity modulus < 80 Gpa).
12.2.2 - Only one calliper (maximum 6 pistons) per wheel is
permitted.
12.2.3 - Pistons (brake plungers) must have a round section.
12.3 - Disc brakes :
12.3.1 - Number : one brake rotor maximum per wheel.
12.3.2 - Material : ferrous exclusively.
12.3.3 - Brake pads : two per wheel maximum.
Grand Am 2007 GT Rules
SECTION 8 - BRAKES
8-1 Brake Rotors
8-1.1 Only magnetic cast iron or cast steel rotors.
8-1.2 Maximum rotor diameter:
Prep 1 - OEM diameter or as described in car specsPrep 2 - 330 mm
8-2 Brake Calipers –
8-2.1 Only one two-piece (split into two halves) brake caliper of aluminum alloy, with amaximum of four pistons and two pads per wheel is permitted. Maximumcaliperstack width is 78mm.
8-2.2 Titanium pistons are allowed in brake calipers.
8-2.3 The brake pedal must operate all four wheels through a dual master cylinder system.
8-2.4 Anti-lock/ABS brakes are prohibited on prep 2 cars. Factory installed ABS allowed on
prep 1 cars as approved.
8-2.5 Prep 1 cars may use prep 2 brakes.
---------------------------------------------------
So these series may be trying to level the playing field by miniminizing cost, or doing additional testing. Who knows? It is clear that the PCCBs are more responsive, and weigh about 50% less unsprung, but in none of the Porsche material that I have read does it say that the PCCB braking distance is shorter than the steel brake option - the Motor Trend says the PCCBs stop from 60mph in 99 feet, MotorWeek in 107 ft, and Road and Track 107 ft.. We shall see.
I think the statement that RC said over at the Rennteam site makes sense - "Regarding track racing: for serious semi-professional track racing over more than a dozend of rounds, I would recommend the steel brake for cost reasons.
For street driving and casual track racing, the PCCB is much better from many points of view. Stopping distance at higher speeds, fading on hotter days, lower unsprung weight, etc. And maybe the PCCB even looks better."
Thanks for listening once again - Gerry
-------------------------------
2007 997 Turbo - Jan Build
2005 GT3 - in shop
2002 996TTX50 - gone and sorrely missed
1995 993 GT2 - driver (not owner)
1993 RSA
1992 911 Turbo S2
1980 SC- best car ever made
I can see both sides of the discussion. The only thing that irritated me was some young 'whipper-snapper' saying that Colm and I were overeducated and underpaid - I founded and sold 2 companies for a large profit, I have found that as I mature, I just tend to be more careful about my money.
I also liked Frayed's input for more data (as well as his avatar - I look like Notle most of the time).
Here are some probably irrelevant data:
Porsche SuperCup and Carrea Cup 2007 GT Rules on brakes:
Brakes
The braking system may be replaced by any system from
the Porsche range and can be chosen freely within the
following parameters:
• Max. brake disc diameter 380 mm
• On the front axle, max. 6 piston brake calliper
• On the rear axle, max. 4 piston brake calliper
• Max. 2 brake pads per brake calliper
• Brake discs and rotors must be of metallic material.
• It must be a 2 circuit braking system.
There are no regulations governing brake ventilation on
the front axle.
SCO LeMans (including American Le Mans) - 2007 LM GT Rules
12.2 - Brake rotors must be made of steel
12.2.1 - Brake callipers shall be made from aluminium materials
(elasticity modulus < 80 Gpa).
12.2.2 - Only one calliper (maximum 6 pistons) per wheel is
permitted.
12.2.3 - Pistons (brake plungers) must have a round section.
12.3 - Disc brakes :
12.3.1 - Number : one brake rotor maximum per wheel.
12.3.2 - Material : ferrous exclusively.
12.3.3 - Brake pads : two per wheel maximum.
Grand Am 2007 GT Rules
SECTION 8 - BRAKES
8-1 Brake Rotors
8-1.1 Only magnetic cast iron or cast steel rotors.
8-1.2 Maximum rotor diameter:
Prep 1 - OEM diameter or as described in car specsPrep 2 - 330 mm
8-2 Brake Calipers –
8-2.1 Only one two-piece (split into two halves) brake caliper of aluminum alloy, with amaximum of four pistons and two pads per wheel is permitted. Maximumcaliperstack width is 78mm.
8-2.2 Titanium pistons are allowed in brake calipers.
8-2.3 The brake pedal must operate all four wheels through a dual master cylinder system.
8-2.4 Anti-lock/ABS brakes are prohibited on prep 2 cars. Factory installed ABS allowed on
prep 1 cars as approved.
8-2.5 Prep 1 cars may use prep 2 brakes.
---------------------------------------------------
So these series may be trying to level the playing field by miniminizing cost, or doing additional testing. Who knows? It is clear that the PCCBs are more responsive, and weigh about 50% less unsprung, but in none of the Porsche material that I have read does it say that the PCCB braking distance is shorter than the steel brake option - the Motor Trend says the PCCBs stop from 60mph in 99 feet, MotorWeek in 107 ft, and Road and Track 107 ft.. We shall see.
I think the statement that RC said over at the Rennteam site makes sense - "Regarding track racing: for serious semi-professional track racing over more than a dozend of rounds, I would recommend the steel brake for cost reasons.
For street driving and casual track racing, the PCCB is much better from many points of view. Stopping distance at higher speeds, fading on hotter days, lower unsprung weight, etc. And maybe the PCCB even looks better."
Thanks for listening once again - Gerry
-------------------------------
2007 997 Turbo - Jan Build
2005 GT3 - in shop
2002 996TTX50 - gone and sorrely missed
1995 993 GT2 - driver (not owner)
1993 RSA
1992 911 Turbo S2
1980 SC- best car ever made
12-02-2006, 08:45 PM
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I would disagree with RC"s comments for the following reason.
Cost aside, the ceramics have a much higher margin of safety (per Porsche) in repeated applications and therefore have to be better for racing. And when you think about cost in the racing world, performance and cost are mutually exclusive.
Stopping distances are more a function of tires, than pads and rotors (to a point) But the initial bite of the ceramics may make the "stopping exercise" begin more quickly, consistently and precisely.
To that young whipper snapper...I'm underpaid, I think!.
Cost aside, the ceramics have a much higher margin of safety (per Porsche) in repeated applications and therefore have to be better for racing. And when you think about cost in the racing world, performance and cost are mutually exclusive.
Stopping distances are more a function of tires, than pads and rotors (to a point) But the initial bite of the ceramics may make the "stopping exercise" begin more quickly, consistently and precisely.
To that young whipper snapper...I'm underpaid, I think!.
12-03-2006, 01:55 AM
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How can you say 'costs aside' in refering to ceramics?
To me that's the whole point. The fact is, the current steel brakes on the TT are the biggest/best ever offered on a TT, they're not exactly junk guys. just my .02
To me that's the whole point. The fact is, the current steel brakes on the TT are the biggest/best ever offered on a TT, they're not exactly junk guys. just my .02
12-03-2006, 10:21 AM
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Colm-
But I would disagree with you in that we are not talking about Formula 1 here - we are talking about GT classes where teams are trying to save money. That's why I listed the less expensive Porsche venues (although they are money pits!). I believe that the mindset of Porsche for the support of it's many GT racers is to provide high quality parts where possible, but have a broken rotor cost the teams $10K to replace is challange. I drove briefly in 1995 in a 993 GT2 Turbo for Freisinger Motorsports, and ther were very careful about not abusing the tires because of cost, etc.
Kind regards - Gerry
But I would disagree with you in that we are not talking about Formula 1 here - we are talking about GT classes where teams are trying to save money. That's why I listed the less expensive Porsche venues (although they are money pits!). I believe that the mindset of Porsche for the support of it's many GT racers is to provide high quality parts where possible, but have a broken rotor cost the teams $10K to replace is challange. I drove briefly in 1995 in a 993 GT2 Turbo for Freisinger Motorsports, and ther were very careful about not abusing the tires because of cost, etc.
Kind regards - Gerry
12-03-2006, 11:02 AM
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RSA333
Wishes and realities are often very different.
The GT classes may wish to save money, but the reality is that racing of any type costs money, and a lot of it.
You aptly labeled it a money pit!
C4S Surgeon
I think the regular brakes on Porsche cars are just great. However the ceeramics are even better, and since I've driven a lot on both I much prefer the ceramics. For me it is not the cost issue, it is the value issue and the ceramics deliver.
Everybody has a different value proposition, but after people experience the ceramics in a variety of conditions their perspective is inclined to change, evidenced by the fact that more and more people are choosing this option. I'm trying to find someone who wants to take the ceramics of their car because they don't like them or can't live with them.... a tough task
A chaque son gout!
Wishes and realities are often very different.
The GT classes may wish to save money, but the reality is that racing of any type costs money, and a lot of it.
You aptly labeled it a money pit!
C4S Surgeon
I think the regular brakes on Porsche cars are just great. However the ceeramics are even better, and since I've driven a lot on both I much prefer the ceramics. For me it is not the cost issue, it is the value issue and the ceramics deliver.
Everybody has a different value proposition, but after people experience the ceramics in a variety of conditions their perspective is inclined to change, evidenced by the fact that more and more people are choosing this option. I'm trying to find someone who wants to take the ceramics of their car because they don't like them or can't live with them.... a tough task
A chaque son gout!
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12-03-2006, 12:04 PM
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Colm,
What is "A chaque son gout!"? (for us underpaid, undereducated, underachieving teeming masses)
On the issue of performance, I personally haven't ever been in a street situation where the brakes on my Porsches needed to be better for any reason. Stopping is limited by temperature, precipitation, reflex time, inattention, diversion, cell phone, sleep deprivation, dirt on the road, bumps, tire choice, tire condition and other factors, most notably anticipation. However, the contribution of PCCB's seems trivial compared to the rest.
I like toys too, but this one seems like tech for tech's sake. Why it is offered before a state-of-the-art transmission or meaningful weight reduction, I cannot comprehend. No disrespect intended.
What is "A chaque son gout!"? (for us underpaid, undereducated, underachieving teeming masses)
On the issue of performance, I personally haven't ever been in a street situation where the brakes on my Porsches needed to be better for any reason. Stopping is limited by temperature, precipitation, reflex time, inattention, diversion, cell phone, sleep deprivation, dirt on the road, bumps, tire choice, tire condition and other factors, most notably anticipation. However, the contribution of PCCB's seems trivial compared to the rest.
I like toys too, but this one seems like tech for tech's sake. Why it is offered before a state-of-the-art transmission or meaningful weight reduction, I cannot comprehend. No disrespect intended.
12-03-2006, 12:13 PM
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"To each his own taste".
When you drive with the ceramics, you'll get the religion. You may not go to church and buy them, but you'll experience the bite!
I agree with "anticipation" and ceramics do wonderful things for your confidence in this area, nary a worry!
When you drive with the ceramics, you'll get the religion. You may not go to church and buy them, but you'll experience the bite!
I agree with "anticipation" and ceramics do wonderful things for your confidence in this area, nary a worry!
12-03-2006, 12:33 PM
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Some other conclusions for steel over ceramics
Originally Posted by Colm
I would disagree with RC"s comments for the following reason.
Cost aside, the ceramics have a much higher margin of safety (per Porsche) in repeated applications and therefore have to be better for racing. And when you think about cost in the racing world, performance and cost are mutually exclusive.
Stopping distances are more a function of tires, than pads and rotors (to a point) But the initial bite of the ceramics may make the "stopping exercise" begin more quickly, consistently and precisely.
To that young whipper snapper...I'm underpaid, I think!.
Cost aside, the ceramics have a much higher margin of safety (per Porsche) in repeated applications and therefore have to be better for racing. And when you think about cost in the racing world, performance and cost are mutually exclusive.
Stopping distances are more a function of tires, than pads and rotors (to a point) But the initial bite of the ceramics may make the "stopping exercise" begin more quickly, consistently and precisely.
To that young whipper snapper...I'm underpaid, I think!.
IAlso, when I called an ATlanta Porsche service, service manager, again saying stopping distances between steel and ceramic, the same...also recommended for ceramics that a now-available softer pad be installed if better street-braking is required. The pads from the factory are more between street and track driving in capability. Maybe with these softer pads, stopping distance may be improved over steel, don't know.
