saabin

No, I just put the car on the lift and raise it up about a foot.. No need to remove the wheels or anything else.
Takes me about 20 minutes to put the plugs in and do the test..

Sans a lift, you could probably use a floor jack and a set of jackstands.
Not hard, really.

cjoy911

Update: Alex forwarded the data logs to Todd from EVOMS. Got an e-mail with an updated tune the next day (today). Did some data logging this evening, and ignition timing (angle) is looking way better. Before the ignition angle was going as low as 1-3 when going WOT in 3rd gear, now with the updated tune, lowest I've seen is 7.5 (based on two 3rd gear pulls). But more importantly, the retardation cylinder is 0 with the new tune. I think retardation cylinder reading 0 really shows that the ECU is no longer pulling timing. Datazap link of new tune link here. Screenshot for comparison purposes below. Note that i'm still running 101 octane, left over when filling up to diagnose this issue. Will definitely do some logging again once I'm back on regular 91 pump fuel.

Before data log, note that retardation cylinder is not zero which indicates timing being pulled, ignition angle as low as 3:


After updated tune, ignition angle improved, lowest is 7.5, more importantly retardation cylinder is 0, which indicates car is no longer pulling timing:

EVOMS

Looks good. Be sure to relog once you're back on straight 91 and send those logs over for further review.

cjoy911

@EVOMS: I finally finished off the race fuel and now back on 91 pump gas. To be exact, I was 1/16 of a tank left of 101 octane before filling up with 14 gallons of 91 gas. Unfortunately, the car is pulling timing again. I sent the logs to Alex at Sharkwerks, hopefully you can review with him just like before. Screenshot below, datazap link here.

Thanks

cjoy911

I got a version 3 of my stage 2 file and recorded some new logs. Unfortunately, it's still pulling ignition timing. I think it is just the limitation of 91 octane. Been doing some research and I really think the car is made to run with 93. I also think the car will pull timing bone stock with 91 octane. Sent the new logs back to the Sharkwerks guys to see what they say.

Something interesting to share are comparison graphs between the 101 octane fuel and map versus 91. There is a noticeable difference. Recall that the version 2 of the stage 2 map with 101 octane fuel I had did not pull any timing at all. The other thing i'm going to try is run 93 on the version 2 map to see if it pulls timing. It would be nice if it didn't as it is more economical to run compared to 101. If it does, i would actually pay up to run 101 all the time. I don't drive the car very often anyways, and I'm all for performance.

Ruskiy

cjoy911

I'm sending logs remotely, and it doesn't have knock sensor logging (if someone can share with me what the sensor name is in Durametric, i will start logging it). So i don't think the tuner has visibility if it's reacting to knock sensor going off. The only feedback that I received is that the car is trying to make too much boost and tweaking the air flow table.

Update: I ran version 2 and 3 of the stage 2 map with 94 octane, and still seeing ignition being pulled. Looks like the sweet spot is 101 octane on version 2 map. However, I haven't tried running the version 3 map with 101 octane. The cost of 101 octane near where I'm at is ~$7 a gallon. I guess I should be thankful to live near a gas station that carries >91 octane (they have 94, 96, 98, and 101). But trying to find that sweet spot to save a few dollars.

TBarrow

not to hijack but what system is everyone using for datalogging? I have seen the DME but it is limited to Porsche. I have been looking at the AVDI Abrites system as it has the flexibilty of other manufacturers. Datalogging, Service reminders, CEL, battery reset after replacement etc...

saabin

As mentioned before, there is no direct "value" for knock that can be logged; what you get is the cylinder retardation on a cylinder by cylinder basis. However, the Durametric doesnt seem to handle this part of the log correctly, as the "values" are garbled; it could be as simple as a bug in the Durametric software where the data structures for transferring that PID are not the same on both sides. (BTDT back in the day with other embedded systems when I used to write code for a living..) At this point, I'd say good luck in getting Duramteric to fix it.



I've got no experience with that one, Durametric is useable basic logging, it's drawbacks are its sample rate (only a couple of times/second for about 10 variables) to the issues with the cylinder knock retardation data. Theres some threads on 6speed that teach you the basics of how to log using Durametric..

Kevin at UMW has a logger that you can use if you buy his tune. It has a much higher sample rate (25/sec.) and records pretty much most of the important data that you need. No real-time view during logging, it just plugs into the OBD2 port.

The Cobb AP is pretty nifty, you can create gauge style layouts and view the data in real-time as well as transfer it to a laptop.

I also use the Torque app ($5 for Pro version) along with a $20 BT OBD2 dongle.. This works pretty well for most basic parameters (not a ton of the pure performance parameters) but has a bunch of very cool layouts that can be viewed in real-time as well as logged for later analysis.

This a few sample layouts I found online, not for our car obviously, but shows the capability. Can run on a tablet or phone. unfortunately, Torque is only for android users, no real iphone support that I'm aware of..




I use the UMW logger for 90% of what I do since I can load it up into datazap as needed. If real-time viewing is important then you have some alternative options.

cjoy911

Some updates: Looks like the tune is as good as it's going to get. Going back and forth with Sharkwerks/EVOMS, they said the car will always pull timing, especially with 91 octane. I made an attempt to make the case that a custom tune can help, and even offered to pay for custom tuning services, but I think what I have is all I'm going to get. To be fair, and to back up their stand on this issue, I did do some data logging with the original stock tune with 94 octane, and the car indeed was still pulling timing. I guess it is normal for the car to pull timing. To be clear, I'm claiming the car to be pulling timing when the 'retardation cylinder' sensor is not zero. Only thing that bothers me is that the Stage 2 version 2 tune did not pull timing with 100 octane, but version 1 did , really felt like that this is data point to show that the tune is a factor in pulling timing or not.

thekash

Hey, did you ever get the tune out figure out the timing / knock issue? I’m running into something similar using OTS Cobb tune on my 997.1 turbo, running a 91oct stage 2 tune with 93oct at the pump and I still seem to get a good amount of knock retard... I just got the car a few months back and it only has 12k miles on it, fully dealer maintained. The thing pulls like a beast, no knock sounds or issues otherwise really but the knock bothers me. I know some is to be expected but seems each cylinder is logging different values. Plugs were changed 3yrs ago and only had about 2k maybe 3k miles put on them changed Engine filter, checked oil levels. Spoke with COBB and they had me move to the 91oct map and said it looks better just use that... likely be going in for a Pro tune soon but wanted to see what you guys thought of this pull in 5th gear.

Thanks!

https://datazap.me/u/kahmed/log-1599...11-14-18-20-26

cjoy911

Not an expert with tuning, but stock map and no mods will pull timing from what I remember, in other words, I think it’s normal for the car to pull a little timing.

thekash

Thanks cjoy911, yeah i've come to the same conclusion. I just can't figure out what "little" timing is... in WOT running OTS COBB Stage 1 91 octane map with 93 shell v-power nirto+ fuel after doing a full tank of techron cleaner and i'm still getting knock around -9 or so. Running stage 2 map it was -11/12 so it looks little better, but still seems really high for running just a stage 1. Even going back to stage 0 with 93 octane gas i'm getting -6 or so. it seems the higher the stage the more timing is being pulled but just don't know which map is "safe" without damaging car... i feel i'm pushing the car more just for testing than i need to and should just stick with stage 1 to be 'safe' and enjoy the car... oddly, i tried one pull today, really slow RMP ride up not going 20 to 100 on the throttle and knock was like -4. Oddly it seems its more dependent on how 'rapidly' i floor the peddle rather than what speed/rpm/gear i'm actually in.

Ruskiy

I think the real question here is, is it REALLY knock? Only audio detection will tell you. I am very familiar with HEARING these statements from German car guys while I tune Jap car and this isn’t an issue on the S2000. In fact ECU is too lenient on how knock is handled if anything.

Question I’d ask COBB, Kevin, Sam is have you taken
a LINK knock-block or some more fancy Say Plex audio knock detection tool and confirm it’s not a phantom knock? Hell if you have F1 money measure cylinder pressures for spikes during knock event.

If it’s phantom knock then you can desensitize that load/rpm/tps area with other ECUs. I can’t say you can do that with Bosch. If it’s real knock then... create a better tune.

I know nothing about tuning these cars on these ECUs but that’s my opinion.

ccsfd

I had pretty much the same issues with knock counts (same knock numbers as your stage 2 counts -11/12 on same fuel) when I first got my Cobb using OTS st2.
I was a bit worried about it but after some research it seem normal for Cobb OTS to show those numbers, I think there were 2 other posts about the same issues.
In the end I decided to do custom tune with Sam (By Design), eliminated the knock numbers and the car goes much better than than the OTS
maps. Sam is very helpful and patient and he did about 4 revisions of the tune till I was happy. I get the occasional -4 but its that same as you mentioned when
rapidly flooring the throttle but really no knock on boost so not sure whats the deal with that one, when i get the -4 theres no boost and theres not much load,
it just goes -4 as soon as throttle is floored for a split sec then goes to 0 the whole boost run. Car pulls hard done 2.9-3.0 0-60 and 10.9 quarters (dragy)