RacingBrake

A typical RB CCB brake kit with Brembo's short fiber rotor(On Ford Focus RS front 380x34mm):


A typical RB CCB brake kit with long fiber rotor (On Tesla Rear 360x28mm):


The first CCB and also is the largest brake kit ever built for 993 (394/390mm):
https://rennlist.com/forums/993-turb...-brakes-2.html

swoardrider

Are the chopped fiber CCM discs able to take debris hitting them if one was to go off track?

RacingBrake

Yes. Although they are not as strong as continuous fiber due to the nature of different fabrication process, but they are not as fragile as most people have learned in the past mostly from 996/997 early pccb adoption.

After more than 10 years you better believe those chopped fiber discs are better and stronger and will continue to be so in the future, or GM wouldn't put them on their stock cars (ZR1/Z28) as factory default, nor will be more car mfgrs like Audi, BMW, Mercedes etc. would offer them as upgrade option.

Basal Skull

FWIW I've been very happy with the RB Kit and the support I've gotten from Warren. I've had a couple off track/unintended off road episodes with these but have not noticed any problems. The pads are really easy to replace as they are like old style top loading and the callipers don't need to come off. I've learned that the best way to bleed these seem to be from old fashioned pedal pumping rather than pressure or vacuum bleeding for some reason. Will be able to give more feedback on the sintered metal pads in a couple of weeks but they seem fine on the street. Still a little cool here in Vancouver, hoping for a dry track weekend.

gt2-josh

May I ask about your business model? Despite performance this will detract from originality void the warranty and potentially have a negative impact on resale value. I assume these haven't landed on an FXX Evo? Is it hardcore track guys specifically? You'd probably send your kid to cclown school if he was going to spend 2x the purchase price of his Jetta on a set of brakes? Just curious aside from Camaro, Mustang and Challenger dudes what is the uptake from other segments? And to clarify Porsche was largely to blame for PCCB syndrome. They promised them on the 996 GT2 and they weren't ready for the first cars and yet they rushed them to market. Ferrari got it right from day one. They launched them on the Enzo and the Challege Stradale ceramics were identical to the Enzos. So the lower rung cars were hugely over braked. My CGT and CS brakes were the best brakes I've ever used and that was 15 years ago but I haven't bought a car with ceramics for a decade and I don't know any Hellcar track heads so as I mentioned my data and me are waaay old. Thanks. JBO

swoardrider

I wouldn't necessarily say Porsche "rushed" PCCB to the market. If you know the history of CCB brakes, then you know that the German manufacturers (SGL) used a different method of building CCB disks than the Italians (Brembo). 15 years ago, there were only 2 ways of building CCBs. Now there are like 3 or 4 methods. Ironically, Brembo bought SGL a while back, but the 2 companies still use different processes to build CCB rotors. 1st gen PCCB rotors by SGL were super fragile because only a very thin part of the surface of the disc was friction material. Brembo CCM was a little more physically robust, but still suffered greatly from thermal shock/oxidation, With advancements in technology, the newer CCBs are supposedly less physically fragile, and more thermally stable. German car manufactures typically use German SGL CCBs. Italian and US car manufacturers typically run Brembo CCM. High end CCB discs like Brembo CCM-X and Surface Transforms are supposed to be extremely durable and a closer cousin to full racing carbon/carbon discs than the old first gen CCBs. It's more about technology advancements in manufacturing and design, then whether or not a company got it "right or wrong" the first time. If one was to argue who got it right the first time, the winner would probably be Surface Transforms (ST). Koenigsegg uses ST for a reason!
For what it's worth, the fastest, smoothest, best braking car I have ever had the pleasure of riding in was ironically a bone sock 1st gen PCCB 996GT2 at Laguna Seca on race slicks with a 30 year+ professional driver. That thing burned through PCCBs, and the owner bitched constantly about them, but nothing at the track that day was faster. Mostly due to out braking the competition, and driver experience. Not even fully raced prepped and caged Speedvision Challenge race cars on irons could beat us. I'm sure it was 70% driver and 30% car that pulled blistering lap times, but the old PCCBs did manage to last 2-3 days at that level of driving. Luckily for the owner/driver, money was not a concern.

swoardrider

I'm stoked to hear you are happy with your CCB kit from RB. This may very well be my next mod!

gt2-josh

Sorry flordier. I disagree with almost everything you said except I appreciate your knowledge of SGL. Your data was based on a ride in a GT2? Huh? I've owned four GT2s including the 2nd or 3rd in the US and likely have more miles and early track history on first gen PCCBs than anyone on this board save for a few others. You say Porsche didn't rush PCCB to market then provide no data. Huh? Is that why Porsche offered early buyers vouchers for brakes or discounts? Where do you suspect the negative history of PCCBs originated? Old wives tales. Unclear. A GT3 RS also 2nd or 3rd also both on PCCBs. A CGT and a Challenge Stradale. Your entire history is incorrect fictitious or fantasy. Thanks for the history lesson. Get some sleep. JBO

RacingBrake

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8460...l#post12077109

Basal Skull

gt2-josh

Thanks RB. Sorry for asking about your business model on a public board. I genuinely dig what you guys do. And I am interested. I am curious how you size your market. And I should have saved that for PM. I'm with you on the 996 GT2. Other than a ride as a passenger in a 996 GT3 R some of my early passenger rides in GT2s remain the quickest lap times highest top mph braking g's lateral g's etc. and I've never been in one on R tires. First GT2s dropped in October 2001 and at that time the only cars I recall as fast were too valuable to fully open up on a track. Droning on here. Apologies again for thread jack and my last question which I should have handled better. JBO PS My favorite car to this day is the sole North American F50 GT LM also on Ceramics. I got a ride for a couple laps at Sears....

gt2-josh

BTW I think I just answered my question. Your brake kits actually preserve value of any performance cars. The owner can put his OEM stuff safe in the box, buy your kit actually improve his brake performance, enjoy his car free of brake stress and then if they sell replace original brakes and increase value of car by having pristine brakes and then buy and repeat. I really do love your concept. It's a truly great idea. I'll shut up now. JBO

swoardrider

Obviously you have more experience than I, or most people do at owning/tracking different generation CCBs. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to understand your "Porsche was premature to the market" statement. You obviously must have had lots of PCCB issues over the years. Are you saying you had zero issues with your 360 Stradale CCBs on the track? Because I've been to enough track days to see equal amounts of CCB equipped cars from various manufactures have issues, and many that don't. The ones that do have issues tend to be big boys with high HP lightweight cars on race tires that are introducing extreme amounts of heat into their brakes creating oxidation/deterioration. Basically running outside of the CCB's temp range.
I get that you are bitter. You paid these car manufactures hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, and they have marketed and sold you these CCB systems on exotic cars as being the ultimate track worthy system. Which is simply untrue of the old generations of CCBs. Shame on Porsche/Ferrari. Shame on Brembo/SGL. I don't pity them one second and hope you guys' get or have gotten some form of compensation for basically being lied too by their marketing/sales department.
The new generations are supposedly better now, and RB may be onto something, claiming pads are a big problem with CCB life. What I don't get, is that Surface Transforms started in 1992 and made their discs available to the public in 2006. Their CCB design has been around for a while now, with the least amount of problems, yet Brembo/SGL still seams to want to try and perfect their CCB designs, which seemed flawed from their conception. I guess its kinda like Apple vs. Microsoft

gt2-josh

OK. Now you and I are on the same page. However I wouldn't say I'm bitter. The PCCB spooked a lot of early adopters. It was a bit of premature release genuine fear of the unknown the cost of replacement rotors and guys that are running at IMSA today overheating / glazing rotors which increases the porousity of the rotors. Once that happens Porsche called them toast. I had one horrible experience that I can't detail here but it was maybe more bad dealer behavior and an incident that happened before I took delivery of my 3rd GT2. The early release is that PCCBs were marketed as a major marketing feature. Separate marketing literature etc. I think Porsche would have done better to make the GT2 more like the 993 Iiteration than PCCBs. The history here is very long but the first 996 GT2s are ROW 2001s but they were equipped with iron rotors. Those very first GT2s fetched a premium. So imagine paying $300K. Yes it happened and six months later you couldn't get sticker then you were afraid to track your car because the brakes cost 15% of the purchase price and PCNA policy was firm we will not replace PCCBs. It wasn't fun but I still obviously loved them because I had three 996 GT2s and one 997 GT2 and only one major issue. My CGT had no issues but I didn't track it and if you recall there were lots of clutch issues. None for me but that's another story. The majority of my track miles were in my Challenge Stradale. I knew lots of CS owners. No brake or reliability issues and you could beat on them all day. No horror stories. The brakes were identical Enzo part number pieces on a car that was quite different in than the Enzo in power weight dimensions etc. I know of an Enzo that was heavily tracked and it eventually ate a set of rotors and th owner just paid for another set. The owner was a nine digit millionaire. I know this is rambling and not cohesive. I'm typing this while I'm watching IMSA LBGP. I should probably try this better later. My buddy didn't finish and I'm under the weather. I'm sorry I was a jerk earlier. You didn't deserve my wrath. I'll end with saying I wasn't bitter. There were horror stories. Maybe early adopter Porsche moot anticipating the increase in track events PCCBs too early. A little initial disappointment in GT2 features and if you're selling the PCCBs as the primary launch feature of the GT2 they should workas marketed. Porsche tools owners they would last the life of the car. Maybe that's the issue. Argh. Confusion and mixed messages and communication and everyone. Does know a horror story. Thanks for giving me a break last night. I'm the one that needs sleep. Best Josh

swoardrider

That's awesome that you had no issues with your Stradale. I've heard of some issue with Ferrari CCBs, but mostly on street cars being beaten on at the track. I wonder if your Stradale had some form of early generation Brembo CCM-X rotor designed to take more heat??