991 Gt3 market enthusiasm?
05-28-2015, 12:19 PM
#32
GT3 player par excellence
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Mooty yes thank you, 430 is what I meant to write - I agree the RS will get closer to that spec Porsche-wise, it won't exceed it emotionally, it will likely exceed it as an overall package however... In my experience of owning over 30 Porsches and 5 Ferraris over the years, Porsche is the friendlier more usable, less stressful machine to own and enjoy...Either way, Porsche has made a marketing decision to go digital, it makes all the sense in the world, it appeals to a market many times the size, plus it's safer for most drivers to operate ... It will leave a few purists missing the heel and toe cadence and dance, but it won't leave the Porsche shareholders missing much at all, quite the opposite... I should have gone for the 4.0 when it first came out, would have felt better about abusing what I now know to be a timeless classic ... Cheers all !
My son has held an interesting opinion on why some really expensive, top of the marque cars depreciate so quickly when the next version comes long. His take on the rapid drop of Porsche Turbo car value is that when each new one is introduced, is that wealthy guys snap them up, because they are the fastest, most expensive version from the manufacturer, excepting the small production spec cars. Then, when a more expensive, more powerful version is offered the owners have the $ to dump the present car, and jump into the newer version.
We were admiring a 996 turbo Porsche, just a few years old, and he remarked that then and even now it is a formidable car, yet has greatly depreciated. The same thing can be said about the 997 turbo cars, they sell now for half or even less than new. People who have rather great sums of money to spend on expensive cars perhaps don't fret about depreciation and lost value, and are eager to pay the cost to always have the next most expensive, fastest car available. There will always be a small sub-set of owners who do track and modify their Porsche's, but I really think the vast majority of "main-stream" cars never even park in a track paddock.
A Porsche GT car will always appeal to a smaller crowd, but I wonder if the same ownership philosophy often applies, wealthy purchasers acquiring them, then "dumping" them when a faster, more expensive GT comes along.
As for the legacy of the Mezgar and oft mentioned manual transmission of the older GT3 cars, I suspect many potential purchasers of of the new cars couldn't care less. When the next generation rolls out, many will quickly jump into them. Which of course is great for those of us who don't have the $ to acquire them new.
Picking up our own '07 GT3 tomorrow from Zuffenhaus, after having the pipes welded, then picking up my 5th grade grandson at school as he has been waiting for me to do that since last fall. With the Sharkwerks "cup exhaust" I will make sure he hears me back in the line of minivans picking up their kids.
so all the best.....
We were admiring a 996 turbo Porsche, just a few years old, and he remarked that then and even now it is a formidable car, yet has greatly depreciated. The same thing can be said about the 997 turbo cars, they sell now for half or even less than new. People who have rather great sums of money to spend on expensive cars perhaps don't fret about depreciation and lost value, and are eager to pay the cost to always have the next most expensive, fastest car available. There will always be a small sub-set of owners who do track and modify their Porsche's, but I really think the vast majority of "main-stream" cars never even park in a track paddock.
A Porsche GT car will always appeal to a smaller crowd, but I wonder if the same ownership philosophy often applies, wealthy purchasers acquiring them, then "dumping" them when a faster, more expensive GT comes along.
As for the legacy of the Mezgar and oft mentioned manual transmission of the older GT3 cars, I suspect many potential purchasers of of the new cars couldn't care less. When the next generation rolls out, many will quickly jump into them. Which of course is great for those of us who don't have the $ to acquire them new.
Picking up our own '07 GT3 tomorrow from Zuffenhaus, after having the pipes welded, then picking up my 5th grade grandson at school as he has been waiting for me to do that since last fall. With the Sharkwerks "cup exhaust" I will make sure he hears me back in the line of minivans picking up their kids.
so all the best.....
i think many of us are "frustrated"
it's one of heart vs brain, profit vs. tradition kind of thing.
NAM VET's son is right, many like the latest greats, some for show off, some like tech, some get bored. but every so often there comes a car (or whatever) that transcend logic and gets under your skin. we try to "understand" why, try to "justify" our relationship with it. but really we can't. it just does....
i was an architect, we study wright's robie house, falling water, khan's kimbell museum(sp), ando's chruches, corbu's villa savoy. we try to dissect plan, section, elevation.. we THINK we got it figured out. we THINK we know why they are great works of arts. guess what, we DONT. these master pieces will never be recreated again.
not saying 997 is THE IT thing. but it is one of those that gets under our skins. is it really analogue? (no, take a look at 996gt3), is it really the center console that's non panarama that made the car? no.... well what is it? do we REALLY know? i dont think so.
i just know i am pretty happy when driving it, that's enough for me. i dont care about the WHY.
05-28-2015, 02:31 PM
#33
Racer
Thread Starter
Mooty, can't argue with that man... well said...
I don't mean to drag this on, but I find this subject matter very interesting personally... I have also designed and built products my whole career of 30 years, and that elusive magical quality is what you always go for, but you can't design for that, you can try, and then you have to convince others that what you have designed is far more valuable than what the guy next to you designed... through branding... some of which (if not most of which) is hot air..
I think Nick Wong is on target, they are pricing the GT in the same way a pair of designer jeans with designer holes in costs 5 times what regular jeans cost... I know several people who own 997Gt3s and very few of them can actually drive them well, but they are wealthy, and in the bifurcated world of zero percent rates, even wealthier... I am certain that there are many GT3 owners who enjoy and appreciate the cars for what God intended them to be, but I also think many others wear it like they would wear an accessory that looks cool... this goes for Ferraris and many other brands as well of course... I think we live in a world of "experiences", you can see it in vacation planning, kitchens designed for people who never cook but look like they cook professionally, diver watches that cost $10k and go 3000m to be worn by people who rarely even get their hair wet, and on and on... but they look cool and they make you feel like something special... some owners (the minority I claim) will feel special because of how the machine was designed, how it performs, how it handles, how it gets under their skin, they will "get it", most I claim will feel special because it looks cool and feels cool, and that's fine as well... but it's a different special...
the 993 gt3 was the real deal, I couldn't find one at the time so I built one to approximate it as best I could... I also think the 996 was pure... the 997 Gt3 is spectacular and started down the path of digital augmentation, but still raw and pure, especially the RS, the 991 to me is starting to smell a bit more of branding... super machine, but I think the enthusiast and purist is only a subset of the demographic it addresses...
I think an interesting question to pose for the 997Gt3 and 991Gt3 owners would be what other brands (if any) they cross-shopped at the time of purchase ... Mooty you're the definition of an outlier and you don't count
I don't mean to drag this on, but I find this subject matter very interesting personally... I have also designed and built products my whole career of 30 years, and that elusive magical quality is what you always go for, but you can't design for that, you can try, and then you have to convince others that what you have designed is far more valuable than what the guy next to you designed... through branding... some of which (if not most of which) is hot air..
I think Nick Wong is on target, they are pricing the GT in the same way a pair of designer jeans with designer holes in costs 5 times what regular jeans cost... I know several people who own 997Gt3s and very few of them can actually drive them well, but they are wealthy, and in the bifurcated world of zero percent rates, even wealthier... I am certain that there are many GT3 owners who enjoy and appreciate the cars for what God intended them to be, but I also think many others wear it like they would wear an accessory that looks cool... this goes for Ferraris and many other brands as well of course... I think we live in a world of "experiences", you can see it in vacation planning, kitchens designed for people who never cook but look like they cook professionally, diver watches that cost $10k and go 3000m to be worn by people who rarely even get their hair wet, and on and on... but they look cool and they make you feel like something special... some owners (the minority I claim) will feel special because of how the machine was designed, how it performs, how it handles, how it gets under their skin, they will "get it", most I claim will feel special because it looks cool and feels cool, and that's fine as well... but it's a different special...
the 993 gt3 was the real deal, I couldn't find one at the time so I built one to approximate it as best I could... I also think the 996 was pure... the 997 Gt3 is spectacular and started down the path of digital augmentation, but still raw and pure, especially the RS, the 991 to me is starting to smell a bit more of branding... super machine, but I think the enthusiast and purist is only a subset of the demographic it addresses...
I think an interesting question to pose for the 997Gt3 and 991Gt3 owners would be what other brands (if any) they cross-shopped at the time of purchase ... Mooty you're the definition of an outlier and you don't count
05-28-2015, 05:30 PM
#34
GT3 player par excellence
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^
cross shop?
there are brands beside Porsche?
pls show me the way.....
wife has a bread van looks rectangular, sliding door. I cannot dignity it as a CAR
cross shop?
there are brands beside Porsche?
pls show me the way.....
wife has a bread van looks rectangular, sliding door. I cannot dignity it as a CAR
05-28-2015, 08:43 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
I swore I would never get a Ferrari, even before i could own one. Porsche guy to the core.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
05-29-2015, 01:31 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
I swore I would never get a Ferrari, even before i could own one. Porsche guy to the core.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
05-29-2015, 01:59 AM
#37
GT3 player par excellence
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I swore I would never get a Ferrari, even before i could own one. Porsche guy to the core.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
Then they went and made the 458 releasing it in 2009 as a 2010 model.
It was so far off the charts that it changed my mind.
Now I do appreciate each car for what it is. I think an interesting cross shop would be a used 458 and a new RS.
Funnier still... Guys that own cup cars are still saying that they can't believe the 458 speciale is even street legal. It is so so fast. And it's worth 2x a new RS in my view.
who says speciales are fast?
prove it.
sell that red thing to me
05-29-2015, 02:00 AM
#38
The 997.2RS and 991 GT3 are two completely different cars. I enjoy driving both for different reasons. I feel very lucky that I'm able to afford such great cars. The 991 GT3 is definitely more refined and can easily be a daily driver while the 7.2RS is definitely more of a weekend/track car.
05-29-2015, 02:14 AM
#39
I don't agree with the halo startement as this has always been the turbo in Porsche world- although I agree some cutomers may se the RS as the halo car.
I also don't agree with the statement that GT cars are like designer jeans or should be same cost or cheaper than regular 911's. Yes they are light on spec options but the small market means the R&D is spread over a smaller group so much so it ends up being built into all of Porsches line up or we wouldn't be able to afford a GT car at all. Note that these cars and their sales go towards the cost of the Cup cars etc and also open the door to the GT3 class.
I also don't agree with the statement that GT cars are like designer jeans or should be same cost or cheaper than regular 911's. Yes they are light on spec options but the small market means the R&D is spread over a smaller group so much so it ends up being built into all of Porsches line up or we wouldn't be able to afford a GT car at all. Note that these cars and their sales go towards the cost of the Cup cars etc and also open the door to the GT3 class.
05-29-2015, 02:40 AM
#40
05-29-2015, 03:17 AM
#41
Drifting
The 997.2RS and 991 GT3 are two completely different cars. I enjoy driving both for different reasons. I feel very lucky that I'm able to afford such great cars. The 991 GT3 is definitely more refined and can easily be a daily driver while the 7.2RS is definitely more of a weekend/track car.
I dd my turbo. I DD my 3 for a whole year. perfect dd road. i switch jobs and i cannot justify "wasting" the car on stop and go traffic. but its nothing that i would struggle with driving the car w on a daily base...
05-29-2015, 03:22 AM
#42
Mooty, can't argue with that man... well said...
I don't mean to drag this on, but I find this subject matter very interesting personally... I have also designed and built products my whole career of 30 years, and that elusive magical quality is what you always go for, but you can't design for that, you can try, and then you have to convince others that what you have designed is far more valuable than what the guy next to you designed... through branding... some of which (if not most of which) is hot air..
I think Nick Wong is on target, they are pricing the GT in the same way a pair of designer jeans with designer holes in costs 5 times what regular jeans cost... I know several people who own 997Gt3s and very few of them can actually drive them well, but they are wealthy, and in the bifurcated world of zero percent rates, even wealthier... I am certain that there are many GT3 owners who enjoy and appreciate the cars for what God intended them to be, but I also think many others wear it like they would wear an accessory that looks cool... this goes for Ferraris and many other brands as well of course... I think we live in a world of "experiences", you can see it in vacation planning, kitchens designed for people who never cook but look like they cook professionally, diver watches that cost $10k and go 3000m to be worn by people who rarely even get their hair wet, and on and on... but they look cool and they make you feel like something special... some owners (the minority I claim) will feel special because of how the machine was designed, how it performs, how it handles, how it gets under their skin, they will "get it", most I claim will feel special because it looks cool and feels cool, and that's fine as well... but it's a different special...
the 993 gt3 was the real deal, I couldn't find one at the time so I built one to approximate it as best I could... I also think the 996 was pure... the 997 Gt3 is spectacular and started down the path of digital augmentation, but still raw and pure, especially the RS, the 991 to me is starting to smell a bit more of branding... super machine, but I think the enthusiast and purist is only a subset of the demographic it addresses...
I think an interesting question to pose for the 997Gt3 and 991Gt3 owners would be what other brands (if any) they cross-shopped at the time of purchase ... Mooty you're the definition of an outlier and you don't count
I don't mean to drag this on, but I find this subject matter very interesting personally... I have also designed and built products my whole career of 30 years, and that elusive magical quality is what you always go for, but you can't design for that, you can try, and then you have to convince others that what you have designed is far more valuable than what the guy next to you designed... through branding... some of which (if not most of which) is hot air..
I think Nick Wong is on target, they are pricing the GT in the same way a pair of designer jeans with designer holes in costs 5 times what regular jeans cost... I know several people who own 997Gt3s and very few of them can actually drive them well, but they are wealthy, and in the bifurcated world of zero percent rates, even wealthier... I am certain that there are many GT3 owners who enjoy and appreciate the cars for what God intended them to be, but I also think many others wear it like they would wear an accessory that looks cool... this goes for Ferraris and many other brands as well of course... I think we live in a world of "experiences", you can see it in vacation planning, kitchens designed for people who never cook but look like they cook professionally, diver watches that cost $10k and go 3000m to be worn by people who rarely even get their hair wet, and on and on... but they look cool and they make you feel like something special... some owners (the minority I claim) will feel special because of how the machine was designed, how it performs, how it handles, how it gets under their skin, they will "get it", most I claim will feel special because it looks cool and feels cool, and that's fine as well... but it's a different special...
the 993 gt3 was the real deal, I couldn't find one at the time so I built one to approximate it as best I could... I also think the 996 was pure... the 997 Gt3 is spectacular and started down the path of digital augmentation, but still raw and pure, especially the RS, the 991 to me is starting to smell a bit more of branding... super machine, but I think the enthusiast and purist is only a subset of the demographic it addresses...
I think an interesting question to pose for the 997Gt3 and 991Gt3 owners would be what other brands (if any) they cross-shopped at the time of purchase ... Mooty you're the definition of an outlier and you don't count
But I guess it would be possible in a 991RS?
05-29-2015, 03:48 AM
#43
Racer
Thread Starter
Ur20v any idea what the margins on the Porsche lineup are? Porsche is funny with public financial statements to begin with, and the P&L is loaded with all kinds of things to get specific on product families... just wondering if anyone knows... as fas as I know Porsche is still the most profitable car company around... (at least it was up to a couple of years ago) ...
05-29-2015, 09:19 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
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I don't agree with the halo startement as this has always been the turbo in Porsche world- although I agree some cutomers may se the RS as the halo car.
I also don't agree with the statement that GT cars are like designer jeans or should be same cost or cheaper than regular 911's. Yes they are light on spec options but the small market means the R&D is spread over a smaller group so much so it ends up being built into all of Porsches line up or we wouldn't be able to afford a GT car at all. Note that these cars and their sales go towards the cost of the Cup cars etc and also open the door to the GT3 class.
I also don't agree with the statement that GT cars are like designer jeans or should be same cost or cheaper than regular 911's. Yes they are light on spec options but the small market means the R&D is spread over a smaller group so much so it ends up being built into all of Porsches line up or we wouldn't be able to afford a GT car at all. Note that these cars and their sales go towards the cost of the Cup cars etc and also open the door to the GT3 class.
They basically created a new subsegment of upper tier cars- mass produced, leaned out, lightly tuned suspension, slightly tarty cars that would appeal to people who thought they were hard core. Of course, these cars could come with (and most did) AC, leather, satnav, etc. At least Ferrari deleted the carpets!
Make no mistake, GT models are just parts bin cars, and the vaunted 997 GT3RS was made in such large numbers that it eclipsed the GT3 volume. Some exterior parts are specific to the models, some underneath the surface, but I bet over 95% of the part numbers are common.
05-29-2015, 11:05 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thank you Mooty for reminding me I don't have a RS. I feel like the punk little brother whenever I see a RS....