GT2: 993 vs. 997 as a value study but NOT another "Are we in a bubble" discussion
03-10-2015, 11:02 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
collecting vs using is something that comes up all the time on a 1911 pistol forum I am on. There is always discussion about "safe queens" and those that use and sometimes abuse their guns. Most of us appreciate the patina a fine pistol acquires with use, but there are some owners who are so fretful about getting a scratch on their firearm that they just won't go and shoot it. I have a friend I often shoot with, he has about five expensive handguns by Wilson, they run about $4-$6K apiece. When we go and shoot, he tapes them all up with blue painter's tape, to avoid any brass nicks from ejected shells. Won't put them in a holster because he is afraid of marring them. I was shooting with him not long ago, he put one of his Wilson's on the indoor range shooter's shelf, and then accidentally bumped the shelf, and his perfect expensive pistol fell onto the concrete floor, and he had to send it back to Wilson for a new front sight and a re-finish. My son is into watches, and there too, some folks just won't wear a fine watch, or take a watch certified to deep ocean depths into a shower. Me, I am in between these sorts, i protect my better "toys" as much as I can, but still use them to the max. I am a patina guy, I guess. A decade ago a friend after years of searching, acquired a '65 Mustang 289 Fastback, with less than 2K miles from new. It was as delivered so long ago. He took me out for a ride, and I just couldn't believe how perfect it was and how rough the thing rode. He told me he was troubled by the decision to keep it perfect, or drive the car, and depreciate it's value. I told him why own it if he didn't drive it. so, just finished washing my coming home daughters's turbo Mini. Warm and sunny here in Upstate SC all the best...
Not shooting a Wilson is like not sleeping with that 25 year old Kamikaze girl you guys keep talking about.
03-11-2015, 12:13 AM
#32
collecting vs using is something that comes up all the time on a 1911 pistol forum I am on. There is always discussion about "safe queens" and those that use and sometimes abuse their guns. Most of us appreciate the patina a fine pistol acquires with use, but there are some owners who are so fretful about getting a scratch on their firearm that they just won't go and shoot it. I have a friend I often shoot with, he has about five expensive handguns by Wilson, they run about $4-$6K apiece. When we go and shoot, he tapes them all up with blue painter's tape, to avoid any brass nicks from ejected shells. Won't put them in a holster because he is afraid of marring them. I was shooting with him not long ago, he put one of his Wilson's on the indoor range shooter's shelf, and then accidentally bumped the shelf, and his perfect expensive pistol fell onto the concrete floor, and he had to send it back to Wilson for a new front sight and a re-finish. My son is into watches, and there too, some folks just won't wear a fine watch, or take a watch certified to deep ocean depths into a shower.
Me, I am in between these sorts, i protect my better "toys" as much as I can, but still use them to the max. I am a patina guy, I guess.
A decade ago a friend after years of searching, acquired a '65 Mustang 289 Fastback, with less than 2K miles from new. It was as delivered so long ago. He took me out for a ride, and I just couldn't believe how perfect it was and how rough the thing rode. He told me he was troubled by the decision to keep it perfect, or drive the car, and depreciate it's value. I told him why own it if he didn't drive it.
so, just finished washing my coming home daughters's turbo Mini. Warm and sunny here in Upstate SC
all the best...
Me, I am in between these sorts, i protect my better "toys" as much as I can, but still use them to the max. I am a patina guy, I guess.
A decade ago a friend after years of searching, acquired a '65 Mustang 289 Fastback, with less than 2K miles from new. It was as delivered so long ago. He took me out for a ride, and I just couldn't believe how perfect it was and how rough the thing rode. He told me he was troubled by the decision to keep it perfect, or drive the car, and depreciate it's value. I told him why own it if he didn't drive it.
so, just finished washing my coming home daughters's turbo Mini. Warm and sunny here in Upstate SC
all the best...
03-11-2015, 10:45 AM
#33
Instructor
You may have enjoyed an ~11% annual cash on cash rate of return, which on the surface seems attractive. However, your analysis completely ignores variance or risk of this supposed "Porsche portfolio."
In other words, if I were to invest the same amount of money in a similar asset with similar risk profile, I would have made a lot more money than 11%. Think 30%.
...
In other words, if I were to invest the same amount of money in a similar asset with similar risk profile, I would have made a lot more money than 11%. Think 30%.
...
03-11-2015, 01:07 PM
#34
I appreciate the gun analogy, I have a few that have been appreciating and I really like them but can't imagine not shooting. Speaking of shooting, I also have a few special cameras as well, I shoot them all the time, an acquaintance who knew the provenance of the camera I was shooting with asked me how many shutter activations I had and I couldn't even tell how to find this information if I cared enough to track it.
03-11-2015, 02:45 PM
#35
The absolute last thing I was, or am ever, trying to do is be a braggart. I know what my collection is all about, it's been built very thoughtfully and carefully over many, many years for my own enjoyment. I was only trying to share some thoughts which I found interesting, nothing more than that. I promise you that I don't need to make a single post on RL to feel good about what I have. Maybe I'm guilty of choosing the wrong drink post-posting, though.
Leif997 - thank you for the kind words.
usctrojanGT3 - one quick point of clarification - cars like the 959, 993GT2, etc... were in fact built off of the production line by Motorsports, Exclusive or a combination of the two. Yes, like all cars, they are meant to be driven, but there aren't a lot of great roads and there are a LOT of morons on the roads that cause one to be a bit cautious when taking them out.
Leif997 - thank you for the kind words.
usctrojanGT3 - one quick point of clarification - cars like the 959, 993GT2, etc... were in fact built off of the production line by Motorsports, Exclusive or a combination of the two. Yes, like all cars, they are meant to be driven, but there aren't a lot of great roads and there are a LOT of morons on the roads that cause one to be a bit cautious when taking them out.
What do you do when you have a Raptor that is a big truck, a 997 gt2, 944 3.0 turbo (track car), 1974 2.7 carrera, rs america, and last but not least a cgt?
You end up driving the car you dont care about putting the miles on more because road conditions, other drivers, inconvenience all come to mind when making a decision. I end up driving my truck more than anything. The car that sees the least mileage is the cgt and the 74. I go 2-3 months not driving my cgt sometimes with traveling and ect. It sits there with a charger plugged in the battery. Im pretty sure if I was just given a cgt without ever owning my other cars, or even working hard to the point of buying my cgt, I would drive it like I stole it. But once you have other cars and you earn the money to own the car you truly dont want to drive it, and sometimes looking at it is enough.
Usually the guys that end up having a collection of cars dont necessarily start off with the mindset of collecting. They just want other options so they dont abuse their prized possessions. I built a 3.0 944 turbo so I wouldnt stomp on my 997 gt2. Same reason I got the gt2, so I would have another option to my cgt. I bought the Rs America 2 years ago when prices were cheap so I could have another option for my all original 74 2.7.
Some of the cars that we own are rare... such as 993 gt2, almost none around. less than 100 units or something like that. We should take our hats off to the guys that dont track their 993 gt2's and have other options to drive. Why??? Its simple, because as time goes on by some things just become obsolete. They are OTMVs, Objects of Transcendent Metapysichal Value. We need to preserve these types of objects. OTMVs usually are fine art, but cars fall into this category as well in some cases. So 30 years down the line we have fine examples of these great machines.
So to the guys that drive their cars.... stop driving them, unless you know what your doing. I hate coming across a car that has rev range 2-4 and has rear bumper resprayed. It tells me 2 things about the previous owner. He is stupid and doesn't know how to drive. Everyone thinks that they know how to drive is whats funnier, but never been in a professional racing series in their lives. I have friends that I compete with in the Prototype lites cars with mazda engines in the IMSA series, that have put thousands of track miles in their gt3's with not a single over rev.
Some guys keep on a persona that they drive them as if they are race car drivers. They talk about how they track their gt3 rs or whatever the case may be, this is all good, and its great seeing these cars on the track. But for crying out loud if you want to drive something, get a 911 cup car, a prototype lites car, a mazda cup, formula 3 car, lol even a shifter go kart... anything that gives you a motorsport experience. At the end of it, porsche tried real hard to give a little bit of that experience in its street cars, and they do an amazing job, but at the end of the day it is just a street car that can be driven to higher limits than most street cars. So do yourself the favor and religiously thank everyone who collects these cars. They are the reason that our cars hold value and become more appealing to the public because of their exclusivity.
Without collectors the price of the gt2rs would be a little under 200k, and the 4.0 rs would a little over 200k.
03-11-2015, 10:51 PM
#37
Its very funny to me, the guys that are always talking about driving their cars and ect.... usually they only have one car or 2. Which is not a bad thing and they probably do drive them hard as they were built to be driven. What do you do when you have a Raptor that is a big truck, a 997 gt2, 944 3.0 turbo (track car), 1974 2.7 carrera, rs america, and last but not least a cgt? You end up driving the car you dont care about putting the miles on more because road conditions, other drivers, inconvenience all come to mind when making a decision. I end up driving my truck more than anything. The car that sees the least mileage is the cgt and the 74. I go 2-3 months not driving my cgt sometimes with traveling and ect. It sits there with a charger plugged in the battery. Im pretty sure if I was just given a cgt without ever owning my other cars, or even working hard to the point of buying my cgt, I would drive it like I stole it. But once you have other cars and you earn the money to own the car you truly dont want to drive it, and sometimes looking at it is enough. Usually the guys that end up having a collection of cars dont necessarily start off with the mindset of collecting. They just want other options so they dont abuse their prized possessions. I built a 3.0 944 turbo so I wouldnt stomp on my 997 gt2. Same reason I got the gt2, so I would have another option to my cgt. I bought the Rs America 2 years ago when prices were cheap so I could have another option for my all original 74 2.7. Some of the cars that we own are rare... such as 993 gt2, almost none around. less than 100 units or something like that. We should take our hats off to the guys that dont track their 993 gt2's and have other options to drive. Why??? Its simple, because as time goes on by some things just become obsolete. They are OTMVs, Objects of Transcendent Metapysichal Value. We need to preserve these types of objects. OTMVs usually are fine art, but cars fall into this category as well in some cases. So 30 years down the line we have fine examples of these great machines. So to the guys that drive their cars.... stop driving them, unless you know what your doing. I hate coming across a car that has rev range 2-4 and has rear bumper resprayed. It tells me 2 things about the previous owner. He is stupid and doesn't know how to drive. Everyone thinks that they know how to drive is whats funnier, but never been in a professional racing series in their lives. I have friends that I compete with in the Prototype lites cars with mazda engines in the IMSA series, that have put thousands of track miles in their gt3's with not a single over rev. Some guys keep on a persona that they drive them as if they are race car drivers. They talk about how they track their gt3 rs or whatever the case may be, this is all good, and its great seeing these cars on the track. But for crying out loud if you want to drive something, get a 911 cup car, a prototype lites car, a mazda cup, formula 3 car, lol even a shifter go kart... anything that gives you a motorsport experience. At the end of it, porsche tried real hard to give a little bit of that experience in its street cars, and they do an amazing job, but at the end of the day it is just a street car that can be driven to higher limits than most street cars. So do yourself the favor and religiously thank everyone who collects these cars. They are the reason that our cars hold value and become more appealing to the public because of their exclusivity. Without collectors the price of the gt2rs would be a little under 200k, and the 4.0 rs would a little over 200k.
03-12-2015, 03:02 PM
#38
Racer
(I do agree with the previous track comment, i.e., no street car, no matter how well prepared comes close to an F3 or a shifter kart… those things are about 2 lbs per hp with little to no suspension travel and in the case of the F3 tons of aero downforce… If the GT2RS is an F16 the F3 or kart is a Yak55 or a Pitts Special - they both have 4 wheels but that's about it…)
03-12-2015, 05:24 PM
#39
yup agree… personally I have assembled a nice collection over the last 20 years and drive the crap out of every single one of them… $50k or $500k makes no difference to me, I drive them for what they are, machines designed to be driven…
(I do agree with the previous track comment, i.e., no street car, no matter how well prepared comes close to an F3 or a shifter kart… those things are about 2 lbs per hp with little to no suspension travel and in the case of the F3 tons of aero downforce… If the GT2RS is an F16 the F3 or kart is a Yak55 or a Pitts Special - they both have 4 wheels but that's about it…)
(I do agree with the previous track comment, i.e., no street car, no matter how well prepared comes close to an F3 or a shifter kart… those things are about 2 lbs per hp with little to no suspension travel and in the case of the F3 tons of aero downforce… If the GT2RS is an F16 the F3 or kart is a Yak55 or a Pitts Special - they both have 4 wheels but that's about it…)
03-13-2015, 08:06 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
03-14-2015, 03:08 AM
#43
Racer
Some of the best memories… they are still stuff… and if you happen to fall too much in love with them, maybe you have a void on the other end… I know people who collect and go to their garage to say good night to their possessions before bed, but they won't show up for their son's birthday with the same appetite…
all that said, still a free country, so to each his own… I'm not judging anyone and I'm glad people get to do what rocks their boat…
03-14-2015, 10:37 AM
#44
Pro
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Rock Hill, SC, just south of Charlotte, NC
Posts: 705
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
Having read the above posts about who drives their cars and who leaves them parked I thought about my own driving habits. First, I am able to only have one "toy" or sports car, and if I damage it, or wreck it, I am not likely to be able to replace it. I have a perfect decade-old Jag, which I choose to drive to and from my part-time work up in Charlotte. I just see so many examples of dangerous cars on the road, and a week ago, was with my wife in stop and go traffic when a car next to us crunched into a leading car, which then was pushed into the car in front of it, and as the three cars were pulling over onto the shoulder, just to our right the exact same thing happened. Yesterday, on my way to work, in the space of less than 500 yards of my merge onto an interstate, there were 3 multi-vehicle accidents, with police and ambulances, one car was on fire. And having so many cars pull up to within inches of my car's rear bumper while on their phones. Or watching how people pull into parking places and then open their doors. We all see this every day.
So I rarely take our GT3 up into a city, because if it is in an accident, while I can fix it, I can't un-wreck it. I hope to keep our Porsche for a long time, and while my car is not in a "bubble wrap", you will rarely see it in busy city traffic.
and all the best....
So I rarely take our GT3 up into a city, because if it is in an accident, while I can fix it, I can't un-wreck it. I hope to keep our Porsche for a long time, and while my car is not in a "bubble wrap", you will rarely see it in busy city traffic.
and all the best....
03-14-2015, 04:53 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,108
Likes: 0
Received 259 Likes
on
173 Posts
Where is the market going with all these Porsches?
It appears that the prices keep rising and people keep buying.
Is now a time to buy?
Will the market go down?
I am looking at adding a few more to the collection but am I crazy to pay these prices? They have doubled in two years some of them...
It appears that the prices keep rising and people keep buying.
Is now a time to buy?
Will the market go down?
I am looking at adding a few more to the collection but am I crazy to pay these prices? They have doubled in two years some of them...