A 4.0, a GT2RS and a CGT are having a drink...
01-29-2015, 10:59 AM
#91
For 4.0, the rise is completely decoupled from the cgt or gt2rs at respective ages.
For instance: http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-fo...l-for-sale-648
That is over 560K, granted it is due to the color and right hand drive rarity but still.
For instance: http://www.jzmporsche.com/porsche-fo...l-for-sale-648
That is over 560K, granted it is due to the color and right hand drive rarity but still.
Lol
01-29-2015, 12:00 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somewhere in a galaxy far, far away....
Posts: 17,107
Likes: 0
Received 258 Likes
on
172 Posts
basically, with everything going toward turbo in the future the GT2 will become even more forgotten.
the CGT will always be an engine worth driving experience however the body will be perceived dated in time as it never was a wind tunnel marvel to begin with and the car never raced like the GT1 supercar. This will keep it pulling away from the other three.
the 4.0L being lower production then the other 2 and the last normally aspirated GT car will pass the test of time. especially being manual tranny.
Normally aspirated manual tranny 911 GT cars will always be the blue chip porsche.
I believe the CGT will continue to rise.
The GT2RS will continue to rise slowly.
The 4.0L will take a slow down or dip in the future.... but at some point in time it will skyrocket and leave the other two cars behind.
the CGT will always be an engine worth driving experience however the body will be perceived dated in time as it never was a wind tunnel marvel to begin with and the car never raced like the GT1 supercar. This will keep it pulling away from the other three.
the 4.0L being lower production then the other 2 and the last normally aspirated GT car will pass the test of time. especially being manual tranny.
Normally aspirated manual tranny 911 GT cars will always be the blue chip porsche.
I believe the CGT will continue to rise.
The GT2RS will continue to rise slowly.
The 4.0L will take a slow down or dip in the future.... but at some point in time it will skyrocket and leave the other two cars behind.
01-29-2015, 01:08 PM
#95
basically, with everything going toward turbo in the future the GT2 will become even more forgotten.
the CGT will always be an engine worth driving experience however the body will be perceived dated in time as it never was a wind tunnel marvel to begin with and the car never raced like the GT1 supercar. This will keep it pulling away from the other three.
the 4.0L being lower production then the other 2 and the last normally aspirated GT car will pass the test of time. especially being manual tranny.
Normally aspirated manual tranny 911 GT cars will always be the blue chip porsche.
I believe the CGT will continue to rise.
The GT2RS will continue to rise slowly.
The 4.0L will take a slow down or dip in the future.... but at some point in time it will skyrocket and leave the other two cars behind.
the CGT will always be an engine worth driving experience however the body will be perceived dated in time as it never was a wind tunnel marvel to begin with and the car never raced like the GT1 supercar. This will keep it pulling away from the other three.
the 4.0L being lower production then the other 2 and the last normally aspirated GT car will pass the test of time. especially being manual tranny.
Normally aspirated manual tranny 911 GT cars will always be the blue chip porsche.
I believe the CGT will continue to rise.
The GT2RS will continue to rise slowly.
The 4.0L will take a slow down or dip in the future.... but at some point in time it will skyrocket and leave the other two cars behind.
And the reason I feel that way is because 70s-90s turbo was cool. It was unique and special. The 996tt and 997tt kind of blew that. So in the future N/A cars and v10/v12 will be a thing of the past and really sought after.
01-31-2015, 03:46 AM
#97
Why?
Leaving out the GT2, for all reasons previously stated, its between the 4.0 and the GT. The RS's single greatest point, is that it's a 911, and in that important fact, is all of the history and familiarity of that model within and outside the Porsche community. It is THE icon of Porsche. Not the GT. The 959, was still a 911 at heart, but the pinnacle. And that's exactly what the 4.0 is. The pinnacle of the 911 experience in its last pure incarnation.
Add to that
Last and best Mezger
Racing lineage
Manual
Limited #'s
etc.
Hands down the 4.0
01-31-2015, 04:58 AM
#98
I agree with Bleek - to some extent the thread has gone sideways, the original post was for "the greatest and most important" of the three. Not the most valuable in 20 years, not the best driver, but the "greatest and most important". Put another way, which car, if NOT produced, would have the most significant effect of Porsche heritage as we know it?
GT2 - perhaps the most under appreciated car here, perhaps even the best driver for some, but just not equal to the 2.7 RS, the 959, and other Porsche icons. If not produced, while it will be missed by some enthusiasts, it will not make as big a dent in Porsche legacy as the two below.
So that leaves the RS 4.0 and CGT.
RS 4.0 - for all the reasons mentioned above, plus the halo effect from all the accolades received from the motoring press, the statement car for what Porsche can still accomplish with the 911 design.
CGT - for all the reasons mentioned above, the technology, the linkage to racing, plus the Porsche entry in the supercar fight against Ferrari from 2004.
CGT by a nose for me.
GT2 - perhaps the most under appreciated car here, perhaps even the best driver for some, but just not equal to the 2.7 RS, the 959, and other Porsche icons. If not produced, while it will be missed by some enthusiasts, it will not make as big a dent in Porsche legacy as the two below.
So that leaves the RS 4.0 and CGT.
RS 4.0 - for all the reasons mentioned above, plus the halo effect from all the accolades received from the motoring press, the statement car for what Porsche can still accomplish with the 911 design.
CGT - for all the reasons mentioned above, the technology, the linkage to racing, plus the Porsche entry in the supercar fight against Ferrari from 2004.
CGT by a nose for me.
01-31-2015, 09:49 AM
#99
If it were just a "rational" thing, I would say CGT easily wins, for most of the same reasons a Ford GT is and always will be worth so much more than any of the many high-performance/low volume variants of the Mustang Ford cranked out.
But the one difference between those two comparisons is that no one would disagree the Ford GT is prettier than any Mustang. And beauty has a big impact on value, especially as the performance capabilities become less relevant when compared to future vehicles which will likely offer more.
And there's just something about that 911 shape. The GT3 hooks me aesthetically in a way the CGT doesn't.
So I'll go for the 4.0.
But the one difference between those two comparisons is that no one would disagree the Ford GT is prettier than any Mustang. And beauty has a big impact on value, especially as the performance capabilities become less relevant when compared to future vehicles which will likely offer more.
And there's just something about that 911 shape. The GT3 hooks me aesthetically in a way the CGT doesn't.
So I'll go for the 4.0.
01-31-2015, 10:58 AM
#100
4.0
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.
01-31-2015, 11:34 AM
#102
"but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me."
I'm going to print that on canvas, frame it and put it on the wall in front of my 4.0! 😄
I'm going to print that on canvas, frame it and put it on the wall in front of my 4.0! 😄
01-31-2015, 11:36 AM
#103
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's some of that logic some of you have used but from a different view.
"Porsche makes a lot of NA cars, so consequently NA cars are a dime a dozen, nothing special about them at all. Heck, even the Boxster and Cayman are NA, so it really devalues the 4.0. Hence, the 4.0 and the CGT are not going to hold value.
The GT2RS will be the long term winner because it's the best iteration of turbocharged Mezger. There is no other Mezger that produces that amount of power. It not only has the most amount of power but also the best 997 chassis. The MSRP reflects Porsche's strategy for the car, since it's the most expensive 997 available and hence Porsche's halo product."
Put in that context you see how silly some of these posts are.
And I am still of the opinion the CGT will rule them all.
"Porsche makes a lot of NA cars, so consequently NA cars are a dime a dozen, nothing special about them at all. Heck, even the Boxster and Cayman are NA, so it really devalues the 4.0. Hence, the 4.0 and the CGT are not going to hold value.
The GT2RS will be the long term winner because it's the best iteration of turbocharged Mezger. There is no other Mezger that produces that amount of power. It not only has the most amount of power but also the best 997 chassis. The MSRP reflects Porsche's strategy for the car, since it's the most expensive 997 available and hence Porsche's halo product."
Put in that context you see how silly some of these posts are.
And I am still of the opinion the CGT will rule them all.
01-31-2015, 11:55 AM
#104
4.0
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.
02-01-2015, 08:45 PM
#105
4.0
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.
The CGT should win this, the GT2 RS should come in second, but in the end I can't call anything other than the 4.0 the best, and hence greatest and most important, car.
The CGT has every advantage. Budget, exclusivity, performance, image, visceral involvement, focus. It was designed to trump every other Porsche including the 911, and it clearly did so. It used components that the 911 can only dream of: carbon tub, inboard double wishbone pushrod suspension, no holds bared modern motorsports engine with unbelievable power to weight ratio mounted exactly where newton intended. It dismissed practicality and the bondage of historical legacy to be the best pure sports car Porsche could possibly make...
And yet for all those advantages, it wasn't quite right. It has a reputation for not suffering fools, but most have no idea how founded this reputation is. Few know that one of the best race drivers in the world (you'd recognize the name) put one into the wall- not doing anything crazy, it just snapped, and he couldn't catch it. Driving the record 'Ring lap made the great Walter Röhle rethink continuing the chase for 'Ring records. It's an amazing car, and on more modern rubber it's much less of a handful, but I can't help think of it as unfinished, less than the sum of its parts, not greater. I want one badly in part because I dearly love scary cars, but I can't give it the win.
The GT2 RS seems the next heir to the throne. The ultimate street 911, the gloves came off in an effort to put the GT-R in its place. It broke all of Porsche's own rules- far too much power and too little weight for its price, it's a modern day 935 for the street, yet it's far less of a handful than it should be. Making that much power usable by mere mortals, handily beating the mighty CGT around the ring (all tires, but still), it sits at the top of the 911 pyramid. While there will clearly be faster 911s, none will be as fast with the original, authentic formula: mezger and manual transmission. Despite this, however, it misses. It has one simple, deadly flaw: lag. And while the turbo rush is addictive, the lag spoils an otherwise pure formula, leaving it in 3rd.
Which leaves the 4.0, the car that should be the runt of this superlative group. An engine long past its prime and in the wrong place, both heavy and down on power in comparison to its older siblings. Heavy steel chassis shared with low rent street cars, a rehashing of many cars that had come before. But where the CGT is less than the sum of its parts, the 4.0 is more. Honed over years, decades even, every generation making small improvements on the last, it gels as a package in a way it has no right to. It's a leap over its 3.8 brother, a car already honed to near perfection. When they get the best 911s of all time together 20 years from now for a comparison test, they will without question need to invite the 4.0. And I think most of us know that it will probably win.
Yes the 4.0 is surprisingly close to plenty of other 911s, yes it's a relatively pedestrian sports car in comparison to the mighty carbon CGT, but it's probably the greatest 911 of all time. And the 911 is probably the greatest, most important sports car of all time. The greatest of the greatest pretty much seals it for me.