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If you hold the parts in your hand you will see that pining is the way to go... The metal on the pipel is very thin and welding two different materials together creates problems that don't exist with pining. Pin them and they won't separate or leak... Plus do the sharkwerks pipes while you are in there.
For the sake of showing pointing out a difference of a opinion.
-Yes OEM has thin wall inserts but not that thin that a good welder can't handle. If your welder screws that up. Find a different welder. If you want more reassurance, like you should, get the BBI inserts. Much better then OEM.
-two different materials together creates a problem. Okay, this is going to expansion rate again arent we ? So are you telling me the screw you guys use to pin is also cast alum ? Same casting properties ? because if it is stainless steel, you know that stainless steel expands at a much higher temp then cast alum, and well that HOLE you drilled in the alum cast is going to get bigger while the SS screw stays the same at 200f = leakage.
-Do you know how fragile threads are of alum ? Let me put it this way. I made that wheel ***** out of 6061 T6. it no longer works because threads wore out on 3 uses! think of all that pressure on that little bolt with cast alum threads ? ouch.
Originally Posted by Steve W
Also, once you understand that the rest of cooling system hoses, which are 4 to 6 times larger in area are held together via the cross sectional area of these paper clips, you'll realize how ridiculous it is to be worried about pinning with small bolts.
Very different engineering mating design.
IMO do whatever you feel best with.
Yes the sharwerks SS oil pipes are a must while in there.
There is less than 35 psi of pressure in the cooling system: that is the max of "all that pressure" you mention: the shear strength of the pin is many many times that... Pining is proven to be more reliable.. Leaks have been associated with welding the pipes not pining... Sharing an opinion and experience: I pinned and sharkwerk pipes mine: no problems.. BBI pipes I am sure are awesome but no experience with them.
There is less than 35 psi of pressure in the cooling system: that is the max of "all that pressure" you mention: the shear strength of the pin is many many times that... Pining is proven to be more reliable.. Leaks have been associated with welding the pipes not pining... Sharing an opinion and experience: I pinned and sharkwerk pipes mine: no problems.. BBI pipes I am sure are awesome but no experience with them.
Correct, you have an opinion, like I have an opinion. Your opinion is based on your experience on pin and your opinion on welding is based on what people talk about on forums, from what you have expressed.
My opinion is also based on what I did to my car (welding), my little experience in ME, knowing alum 6061& cast very well , most important using the expertise of several contacts I have whom have their own business in (CNC shops /talking to their ME as well) prior to me making a decision. Not using a car forum to help me make a decision.
-two different materials together creates a problem. Okay, this is going to expansion rate again arent we ? So are you telling me the screw you guys use to pin is also cast alum ? Same casting properties ? because if it is stainless steel, you know that stainless steel expands at a much higher temp then cast alum, and well that HOLE you drilled in the alum cast is going to get bigger while the SS screw stays the same at 200f = leakage.
-Do you know how fragile threads are of alum ? Let me put it this way. I made that wheel ***** out of 6061 T6. it no longer works because threads wore out on 3 uses! think of all that pressure on that little bolt with cast alum threads ? ouch.
Very different engineering mating design.
LOLz! Sorry did you say you were or were not a ME? With that logic, you'd better hurry up and weld all your oil and coolant drain plugs because you you got dissimilar materials materials going on!!
I welded, its what my shop prefers. I would go with what your shop is an EXPERT at, pick one, but address the problem. Both methods, done right, have shown to be reliable.
My shop has fixed shoddy pin jobs that were leaking too.
Yup. On my 7.2 GT3 at the last track event in 6/14. Last 15 minutes of the track day. No warning signs at all.
It just happened and another RL member with a 7.2 Grey GT3 with gold aftermarket wheels (sorry forgot your handle on RL!) was following me when it happened. I was lucky that I didn't spin, but losing traction suddenly was scary. I just pitted in after I noticed it to find leaking coolant.
Had to get a tow to a local Seattle shop and go back down to pick-up the car when it was done (I live in Vancouver). A real pain.
I went the welding route and a couple of Sharkwerks coolant pipes for the fix. Peace of mind.
LOLz! Sorry did you say you were or were not a ME? With that logic, you'd better hurry up and weld all your oil and coolant drain plugs because you you got dissimilar materials materials going on!!
Your picture has some truth. Case is not norm cast alum I believe. The water housing assemble(first pic) is **** alum cast as rest - so good example. Anyways notice on both how were the plugs are located, the extra use of material around the plug to increase length of threads in and outside part , also notice how they keep plane flat to head of bolt for a flat seal. Your pins, don't have any of those features. Also those plugs are not holding another component from flying out and the screw does not extrude into flow of whatever liquid inside. Anyways like Spyerx said, use whatever ur shop is comfortable. Like I said before any is better then oem.
Your picture has some truth. Case is not norm cast alum I believe. The water housing assemble(first pic) is **** alum cast as rest - so good example. Anyways notice on both how were the plugs are located, the extra use of material around the plug to increase length of threads in and outside part , also notice how they keep plane flat to head of bolt for a flat seal. Your pins, don't have any of those features. Also those plugs are not holding another component from flying out and the screw does not extrude into flow of whatever liquid inside. Anyways like Spyerx said, use whatever ur shop is comfortable. Like I said before any is better then oem.
Based on what engineering principle? The #8-32 bolt is 4mm in diameter, the threaded depth after milling the surface flat is 7.5mm, therefore thread engagement length is 2x the bolt diameter with about 10 turns of engagement.
BTW, next time you take out your coolant drain plugs, let us know how long the length of their tread is into that cast housing. hint: it's shorter than the 3/8" bolt we use
You're assuming we're drilling where you're measuring, and you know how accurate that is not. In reality, the depth at the points of pinning all measure between 7.0 to 7.5mm. Modeling this in software doesn't change real measurements. Anyways I'm not sure what you're all worked up about, but cheers:
Pinning or welding both works at preventing the catastrophic blowout. I had mine welded . My friend had his 07 pinned.
Just ensure you have an experienced operator do the job , pressure test it and take good pictures. Did the Sharkwerks 2 inserts welded while engine was out Jan 2013.
Peace of mind, IMO
Last edited by seapar; 08-19-2014 at 10:27 AM.
Reason: added pics
Yup. On my 7.2 GT3 at the last track event in 6/14. Last 15 minutes of the track day. No warning signs at all.
It just happened and another RL member with a 7.2 Grey GT3 with gold aftermarket wheels (sorry forgot your handle on RL!) was following me when it happened. I was lucky that I didn't spin, but losing traction suddenly was scary. I just pitted in after I noticed it to find leaking coolant.
Had to get a tow to a local Seattle shop and go back down to pick-up the car when it was done (I live in Vancouver). A real pain.
I went the welding route and a couple of Sharkwerks coolant pipes for the fix. Peace of mind.
That was me. You had a hell of a day. Coolant issue and 3 of 4 CL wheels not done right. What did the shop say when you brought it up with them?
In the upper right photo in post 56 is the part that I have an issue with. The fitting on the left most part in the photo is about 1.25" longer than the rest. Using the billet fittings for welding they don't include a longer one. You end up needing to make a splice in the hose or welding two of the fittings together to get the extra length. Hopefully someone will offer a solution. It's a CNC part and I'd gladly pay extra for the longer fitting.
I was going to model neck + insert and what it takes to make it flat and the threads using the screw you are using on soild works. Given your attitude, it really ins't worth going through the trouble / my time of making it to show your paperclip method is mediocre and i'm not looking to get into a pissing contest.
Originally Posted by Alan C.
In the upper right photo in post 56 is the part that I have an issue with. The fitting on the left most part in the photo is about 1.25" longer than the rest. Using the billet fittings for welding they don't include a longer one. You end up needing to make a splice in the hose or welding two of the fittings together to get the extra length. Hopefully someone will offer a solution. It's a CNC part and I'd gladly pay extra for the longer fitting.
?? You’ve ripped on those who have pinned with bolts and put us in the position with facts and data to disprove your assumptions. If you can’t take the heat, don’t start criticizing without a sound engineering background.
08-18-2014, 12:41 PM
, most important using the expertise of several contacts I have whom have their own business in (CNC shops /talking to their ME as well) prior to me making a decision. Not using a car forum to help me make a decision.
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