Walter Rohrl on Piston Heads
01-15-2014, 02:12 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
If they could have had both and not lost profit in the process I'd think they would have. Instead of telling us a load of BS.
01-15-2014, 05:50 PM
#32
Drifting
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The choice to put PDK in all GT3s went above the heads of everyone at Porsche and was purely a VW decision.
01-15-2014, 09:58 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Sorry to have to be the one to point this out to you but you are wrong.
For one thing if the driver misses a shift Porsche doesn't pick up the tab. That's what the DME and its overrev counters are for. To protect Porsche from the drivers who make the money shift.
And your comment about Porsche's grander plan to introduce inferior engine technology is just so silly I'll leave it at that.
The overriding reason for PDK is to help theses car deliver acceptable fuel mileage and CO2 emissions numbers in the mileage/CO2 emissions testing.
Porsche is not alone in this, as every other car maker does the same thing. This is why one is seeing 6, 7, even 9 speed autos and 7 speed manuals on car.
With PDK the shift points are designed to 'game' the test and help the car deliver very good results.
For one thing if the driver misses a shift Porsche doesn't pick up the tab. That's what the DME and its overrev counters are for. To protect Porsche from the drivers who make the money shift.
And your comment about Porsche's grander plan to introduce inferior engine technology is just so silly I'll leave it at that.
The overriding reason for PDK is to help theses car deliver acceptable fuel mileage and CO2 emissions numbers in the mileage/CO2 emissions testing.
Porsche is not alone in this, as every other car maker does the same thing. This is why one is seeing 6, 7, even 9 speed autos and 7 speed manuals on car.
With PDK the shift points are designed to 'game' the test and help the car deliver very good results.
My point is that there was leeway of 1000rpm above redline before the old engine was in danger of going boom... Try that with the new engine... The same mis-shift mistake with the new engine which is truly maxed out would result in an immediate boom thus increasing the number of failures seen. Ultimately PDK can safeguard a cheaper, mass produced engine removing the need to use motorsport grade gear in street cars and increasing the bottom line by $10-20k per car...
FYI:
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
As for your dismissal of my comment regarding inferior engine technology, I have it on very good authority that the use of the mezger in the motorsport program is no fluke... Don't ask how I know because this I can't share but lets just say they've already been there with the new powerplant...
As for fuel economy theories, Nizer has addressed that and if you take the time to compare 997.2 GT3 figures with those of the new car, both fuel and CO2 figures are remarkably close despite PDK and direct injection...
Last edited by 911rox; 01-15-2014 at 10:28 PM.
01-16-2014, 06:27 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
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Well with the old engine built the way it was, whilst the redline was set at 8400rpm, someone had to hit stage 3 overrevs, well over 9000rpm before warranty was voided. In many cases, these engines would survive stage 4+ overrevs if exposure was only short but yes, Porsche did not pick up the tab as you've pointed out...
My point is that there was leeway of 1000rpm above redline before the old engine was in danger of going boom... Try that with the new engine... The same mis-shift mistake with the new engine which is truly maxed out would result in an immediate boom thus increasing the number of failures seen. Ultimately PDK can safeguard a cheaper, mass produced engine removing the need to use motorsport grade gear in street cars and increasing the bottom line by $10-20k per car...
FYI:
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
As for your dismissal of my comment regarding inferior engine technology, I have it on very good authority that the use of the mezger in the motorsport program is no fluke... Don't ask how I know because this I can't share but lets just say they've already been there with the new powerplant...
As for fuel economy theories, Nizer has addressed that and if you take the time to compare 997.2 GT3 figures with those of the new car, both fuel and CO2 figures are remarkably close despite PDK and direct injection...
My point is that there was leeway of 1000rpm above redline before the old engine was in danger of going boom... Try that with the new engine... The same mis-shift mistake with the new engine which is truly maxed out would result in an immediate boom thus increasing the number of failures seen. Ultimately PDK can safeguard a cheaper, mass produced engine removing the need to use motorsport grade gear in street cars and increasing the bottom line by $10-20k per car...
FYI:
Rev ranges - 997 GT3:
Create the VAL before deleting the fault memory. Overspeed events are documented as follows in the VAL:
Rev range 1: 8,400 -1 ... to 9,200 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 2: 9,200 -1 ... to 9,400 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 3: 9,400 -1 ... to 9,600 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed exceeded; engine damage possible.
Rev range 4: 9,600 -1 ... to 10,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed clearly exceeded; engine damage probable.
Rev range 5: 10,000 -1 ... to 11,000 -1
⇒ Maximum permitted engine speed very clearly exceeded; engine damage very probable.
Rev range 6: over 11,000 -1
⇒ Engine damage has generally occurred.
As for your dismissal of my comment regarding inferior engine technology, I have it on very good authority that the use of the mezger in the motorsport program is no fluke... Don't ask how I know because this I can't share but lets just say they've already been there with the new powerplant...
As for fuel economy theories, Nizer has addressed that and if you take the time to compare 997.2 GT3 figures with those of the new car, both fuel and CO2 figures are remarkably close despite PDK and direct injection...
..just to add, many CUP cars have multipls entries at 6..wonder if the new 991 GT3 engine will sustain that as well...any by the way, Im still waiting for it to appear in Motorsport...but it seems I can wait forever for this...
01-16-2014, 08:16 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
fuel and emission figures:
997.2 991
Urban l/100km: 19.8 18.9
Extra Urban: 8.9 8.9
Combined: 12.8 12.4
CO2 g/km: 303 289
Considering they've thrown PDK and direct injection at it, I see nothing I'd write home about.....
997.2 991
Urban l/100km: 19.8 18.9
Extra Urban: 8.9 8.9
Combined: 12.8 12.4
CO2 g/km: 303 289
Considering they've thrown PDK and direct injection at it, I see nothing I'd write home about.....
Last edited by 911rox; 01-16-2014 at 08:37 AM.
01-16-2014, 09:25 AM
#36
Nordschleife Master
Regulations are not to blame as to why Porsche decided to make the switch to PDK.
01-16-2014, 11:22 AM
#37
Race Director
i believe PDk or seim auto trannys exist for a number of reasons but namely performance.
When Ferrari 1st introduced the 355 in the mid 90s, IIRC, its was chiefly for the performance benefits. The other reason being: differentiating vs the competition (esp the NSX).
Regulatory pressures life CAFE has always been there, but really didnt get a lot of traction until more recently in the early 2000's.
When Ferrari 1st introduced the 355 in the mid 90s, IIRC, its was chiefly for the performance benefits. The other reason being: differentiating vs the competition (esp the NSX).
Regulatory pressures life CAFE has always been there, but really didnt get a lot of traction until more recently in the early 2000's.
01-16-2014, 05:38 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
The man knows his cars. Full text here: http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=29197
You have, of course, been heavily involved in the development of the new 918 Spyder, as you were with the Carrera GT. Which is your personal favourite?
"If I have to choose for a future car, I would take the Carrera GT. The car is slower, and it is much more difficult to drive, but it's more how I expect the car to be.
"The 918 is something highly sophisticated; it's very fast, it's very easy to drive, but it doesn't give you the same feeling as the Carrera GT. Of course if somebody is asking me which to buy, I will always tell them: take the 918. With it, your life is easier, and your life is safer. But the sound of the 10-cylinder; this alone is something which is unique!"
And the next predictable Porsche question; PDK in the GT3 - thoughts?
[With a knowing smile] "Yes, during the press launch everybody was complaining and saying: 'Why?!' But I said, 'Be happy! Drive the car and you will see how much easier it is for you to go fast.' The shifting is something very impressive. I think most engine problems we have created because people were not able to watch the rev counter, watch the speed, and know when to shift. So they would shift back too early and the engine would be over-revving. With PDK, you avoid this. But for myself, if I want to buy a car, and I want to say I keep this car for the next 20 years, I would always take a manual gearbox, because I believe more, I trust more in a manual than in a double clutch. I've just ordered a Boxster Spyder with a manual shift - and I know that it's working, it's perfect, and it's up to me how I handle things. But PDK makes life easier for normal customers."
Given that, what's your pick of the GT3 lineage?
"It would have to be the first GT3 in 1999, the one in which I set first [Nurburgring] time under eight minutes, a 7:56. I think that car was like a 2.7 RS from 1973; a pure Porsche. Today it's easier to drive the new GT3. On the Nuerburgring, to go 7:35 is nothing any more. It's so easy to drive, it's so perfect; you don't even have to shift any more. You just put down the throttle and brake and everything is going automatically. Really the newest one is always the best one. But for myself, I always want that it is my talent to make the car fast, and in the old one you really need more talent than with the new one. But I still thinkthe 997, with 435hp, it is a fantastic car. In it, everyone can go fast."
You have, of course, been heavily involved in the development of the new 918 Spyder, as you were with the Carrera GT. Which is your personal favourite?
"If I have to choose for a future car, I would take the Carrera GT. The car is slower, and it is much more difficult to drive, but it's more how I expect the car to be.
"The 918 is something highly sophisticated; it's very fast, it's very easy to drive, but it doesn't give you the same feeling as the Carrera GT. Of course if somebody is asking me which to buy, I will always tell them: take the 918. With it, your life is easier, and your life is safer. But the sound of the 10-cylinder; this alone is something which is unique!"
And the next predictable Porsche question; PDK in the GT3 - thoughts?
[With a knowing smile] "Yes, during the press launch everybody was complaining and saying: 'Why?!' But I said, 'Be happy! Drive the car and you will see how much easier it is for you to go fast.' The shifting is something very impressive. I think most engine problems we have created because people were not able to watch the rev counter, watch the speed, and know when to shift. So they would shift back too early and the engine would be over-revving. With PDK, you avoid this. But for myself, if I want to buy a car, and I want to say I keep this car for the next 20 years, I would always take a manual gearbox, because I believe more, I trust more in a manual than in a double clutch. I've just ordered a Boxster Spyder with a manual shift - and I know that it's working, it's perfect, and it's up to me how I handle things. But PDK makes life easier for normal customers."
Given that, what's your pick of the GT3 lineage?
"It would have to be the first GT3 in 1999, the one in which I set first [Nurburgring] time under eight minutes, a 7:56. I think that car was like a 2.7 RS from 1973; a pure Porsche. Today it's easier to drive the new GT3. On the Nuerburgring, to go 7:35 is nothing any more. It's so easy to drive, it's so perfect; you don't even have to shift any more. You just put down the throttle and brake and everything is going automatically. Really the newest one is always the best one. But for myself, I always want that it is my talent to make the car fast, and in the old one you really need more talent than with the new one. But I still thinkthe 997, with 435hp, it is a fantastic car. In it, everyone can go fast."
01-28-2014, 10:13 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Walter was employed because he brings credibility to the "performance cars" offered by porsche. Enthusiasts listen to what he has to say. I think in this case he was speaking to porsche on behalf of the enthuastiast.
01-28-2014, 10:00 PM
#40
Instructor
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