aussie jimmy

thanks for the write-up, jesse.
nobody could ask for more reliable feedback.
and from somebody who does indeed drive flatout!

kyrocks

Thank you for taking the time to post the great write up on those 3 vehicles, Jesse. I enjoyed it immensely.

m5trol

Fantastic post and review. If a little biased in favor of the italians

Agree with most of what you have said of 4.0 but I think in the drive train section, you skipped over the 4.0 assuming we already know what we are getting into. I suppose that is correct, but I just wanted to point out that the "flawed" layout of the car does indeed help in ability to slide the car on command and steer with throttle. Sure, these slides are not going to be 100 yards like red, but still pretty fun and oh so much more readable through the steering and seat of the pants.

TheStiglet

I've never been a big fan of Italian cars, as from 1975ish until about 2000ish they were rubbish. Pretty, but not effective. But props are due. The 430 was very good, and the 458 is a fantastic car. Not perfect (nothing is). If I seem biased, I'm just happy to be impressed by any product from any mfg.
The 458 puts big, no, HUGE smiles on peoples faces. If we could just find a way to bottle that sound...

M5Trol, Excellent observation! I probably did write this subconsciously from the perspective of having spent more time at the wheel of a 911 chassis than anything else (I race a Cup car). Such that in sections it is the inferred baseline experience. On the other hand, the review is not thorough nor complete. I didn't attempt to address every aspect of each car, but perhaps to highlight the more noticeable peculiarities of each.

The pendulum aspect of the 911 certainly means that once you get the rear ending moving, it's happy to keep rotating. But as a result you have to work harder to sit it back down, such that overall, in my experience it is =not= easier to slide or drift in exaggerated slip angles or for extended distances. For example in a front engined RWD car such as a Corvette or front-mid-engined RWD Aston Martin Vantage I can literally burn-out/drift the cars all day long, because you can utilize the throttle to entirely control the amount of drift, and easily back-off. It's also easier to initiate due to the minimal rear end mass, which results in much less inertial resistance. Whereas in the 911, I find myself being much more controlled and limiting this slip, because once the rotational momentum builds, it really can get away from you.
The rear-mid-engined cars like the 458 and 12C are somewhere in the middle; a little more of a handful that the front loaders, but considerably more benign than the 911. If you like big power slides, I can't recommend the 911. But I suppose it depends on your risk tolerance and steering perfection!

NJ-GT

Jesse, great review of the three cars and I agree with everything you said (the lack of a mechanical LSD is the biggest flaw in the 12C, but owners refuse to accept the defect).

I have driven three 458s, test drove the 12C, I have not driven the 500Hp 4.0RS yet, but have driven plenty other GT3s in multiple flavors.

The 12C optional CCM brakes are gigantic, they share pad shape with the 458/430Scuderia/ZR1/F430C/458C. They also come with magnificent brake ducts built by ProDrive. The car runs on 19" wheels all around if you need track rubber (slicks or Hoosier/BFG).

The 458 is too heavy, a stock 458 with a full tank of fuel is near 3,500 lbs with no driver. Everything the 458 does, the 430 Scuderia does better, except being civil as a DD, because the single clutch transmission in the Scuderia is not smooth in traffic street driving, but who wants a 430 Scuderia for such boring drive.

My Scuderia with a full tank of fuel is 3,113 lbs, and 2,957 lbs with no fuel, on wide 9.5 and 11.5 x 19" wheels and 295/345 Hoosiers.

New 458 Scuderia to be introduced next month, and that's the car I'm waiting for, all the emotion/lightness/raw/sound of the Stradale/Scuderia with a 4.5 V8 and 9k rpm redline.

C.J. Ichiban

I am really enjoying reading from other MP4 drivers as to their experiences- good to know I need some Motul to replace my stock fluid before I do take it to the track.

I really have enjoyed tracking GT3/RS products over the years and agree that it is a great experience, I just don't do it anymore- although now that my fiancé has gotten into motorcycles and cars, I think we will be doing some track days this winter...

I think the new RS with PDK will close the lap time gap (on the top gear leaderboard and realistically for most drivers in real life) into 458/MP4 territory when it debuts- hey it might even be better lap-wise than the 4.0...

For me the biggest downside of the ferrari isn't anything with the car- it is the business aspect. I don't feel like ferrari really wants to sell cars to people- they want to maintain a mystique and hold you over a barrel. I'm happy that MCL has at least sold a faster car, fixed some bugs and treated my car-addiction with politeness and enthusiasm. Every time I bring it by the dealer or correspond they ask me how many miles I have, and are excited that I use it daily.

richk

My friend James Del Pozzo runs Beverly Hills Ferrari. He is a great guy and very much a car enthusiast. My problem with ferrari's is that when you drive them they depreciate very quickly. I loved my 458 coupe and my 430 scuderia but the depreciation is keeping me away from f-cars.

That said I am already drooling over the 458 scud!!!

C.J. Ichiban

yes the only ferraris that don't depreciate dramatically with more than 3k miles are the F40, F50, Enzo...

lets be honest they sound better than anything else. I'm curious to see how the 458 stradascuditalia sounds

Tacet-Conundrum

Hypothetical question here...

Would have anyone bought the black F40 they restored on Gas Monkey? I mean ****, they WAY overpaid for the wreck version of it. What did they buy it for $400K? That is silly for you can find F40 in a distressed sale for neT $500K. THAT car wasn't worth anything near $900K like they were saying on the show. What Hollywood bull****.

Carrera GT

No question. Those numbers won't fool any Ferrari buyer and probably won't fool the tax man when they try it on for size; it will spell "cavity search" scale of audit.

If a 40 was damaged at a sanctioned event and deemed repairable and fully documented by a credible authority, it returns to 100% of fair market value, though it could well cost most of those dollars in the restoration!

It's removed from the elite few time capsule cars, but them's the breaks and if you have correct insurance, you get the lost value at that time, but you miss out on the ride higher, which is a bummer if you bought a nice once circa 2000 at say $150K and wrote it off, only to decide to get another one a few years later and the scruffy ones were $250K.

Carrera GT

The 458 Monte Carlo is said to be way over the top and demand stretches out beyond the event horizon, so I'm not holding my breath for my number to come up. Someone just returning from a factory tour said rather marvelous things about what they imagined they saw. They weren't privy to any secrets, but perhaps a little more definition than in the publicity ... I mean "spy" ... photos.

http://www.gtspirit.com/2013/07/26/s...n-the-streets/

As for Ferrari values, things are lot better today than any time since the '08 (ongoing) economy collapse. If you lost money on a 458, maybe you had an unusual equipment spec or you were not quite careful enough in the trades. I've seen more friends ditch their 458 than their earlier Ferraris.

I was full well expecting them to be royally shafted, but even the most recent seller mentioned it was one of the least expensive cars he's owned in terms of retained value.

I think they sold in part because they were "once bitten" with "never lose a dime" purchases like the 458 Scuderia and the 599 (not including the GTO, which was more of a "free money" gift to valued customers) and in part for the reasons described here that it's an exhilarating car, but as an entry level Ferrari, it lacks the charisma of say the 430 Scuderia or 360 Stradale, both of which I think have achieved their place in history and are at price levels now; buyers of these technologically wondrous cars today may live to rue the missed opportunity of spending less money and getting more car in these "old examples" from just three years ago that will remain out of favor with the status conscious Ferrari buyer; but not for too much longer, and I wonder if a car like the 430 Scuderia hasn't already found its floor.

Carrera GT

I'm glad even the celebrities get the "barrel" treatment -- I thought it was just the likes of me being singled out. Anyway, I don't mind the barrel, it's what they want to do once I'm over the barrel that's not part of the "ownership experience" I'm prepared to experience. Even when one of the two local Ferrari dealerships collapsed, when it was resurrected, they didn't learn from their mistakes. At least the local shop, Ferrari Silicon Valley, has a modicum of decency in the showroom and they've given up their airs and graces for a more realistic, "We're in business to sell Ferraris." busines model instead of the "Kiss the ring, prostrate yourself, wait an eternity, then, and only then, shall we allow you the privilege of buying our precious."

When I see the typical Ferrari sales clone in their oh so fashionable attire and the trappings of materialistic overt pretensions of wealth, I see this:

C.J. Ichiban

CGT you are hilarious. Bottom line is that the english/ german car dealers are generally better with service. those are my personal observations. I have been treated very well by Porsche, Bentley, McLaren. Only dealt with one bozo ever in a Porsche store and most of them are great. Benz and Audi I've had good and bad experiences but put it at 50% schmuck/polite.

I go into Lambo stores and snoop around since most of them are next to or with Bentley dealers and they are much nicer than Ferrari. As for Ferrari, in the last 10 years of shopping I have only met two people (out of 20-30) that I'd consider dealing with.

TheStiglet

I think I need to buy and drive a CGT and then update the review! Any thoughts on how it would compare to these three?

Antonov

Easy win. All the qualities that won the RS4.0L a score of 24, but with the balance, noise, drama, and sense of occasion to rival any car at any price. Oh and its got a proper gearbox and diff.