Tacet-Conundrum

I'm finally having a the chance to return to Pebble Beach for a Hoot & Holler. I haven't had the chance since 2009 due to Business abroad and family tragedy.

I will be of course be hitting up Quail Lodge on Friday for a few test drives and a chat and maybe lunch or dinner with Sascha Glaser.

But what I'm actually excited about for once is a test drive with the new McLaren. Last time I was up there they weren't giving test drives to most unless your happy *** was named Jay Leno.

What I'm most concerned with is what should I be paying attention too most? As for instance is the Porsche Chassis feels more like a wet-noodle compared to the McLaren? Is the shifting more crisp in the McLaren compared to a Porsche Turbo GT2RS or GT3/4.0; such questions as this.

I want to build a good list of three characteristics to pay attention too, the three most important characteristics that those who have experience in both cars I would like to chime in.

Didn't CJ Ichiban get a McLaren? Any input would be appreciated.

I've waited too long to pull the trigger on an 991 TT but good thing I have because I have been blessed with leveraging my money and assets and have become lucky. Not bad for caring for an extremely ill father who I promised not to go out and buy one of those silly Porsches. Don't know what he was talking about, he was a truck driver most of his life who was smart with his money and never spent it. I told him I just might buy a Buick GNX. Ahh, the things we wanted when we where children.

It's either that or get that 959 for that Targa Tasmania.

Sorry for the off topic content but this is about the best forum on the internet for this question. I looked at 6speed and TS and both of them practically have many folks I Felt who could not help me. Something tells me they are ran more by Children with excellent PhotoShop skills. Alas my friends.

GT3DE

Its just a car. Eyes far down the track, foot planted firmly to the floor. Go, go, go.

Carrera GT

I know someone with the ability to drive and currently owning a 12C and the 4.0, so I'll ask him to comment. Personally, I wouldn't bother with any of the cars you've mentioned at this point, -- theyre variously over-priced or outdated -- but I would congratulate you on putting life's priorities in what I consider the correct order.

I'd suggest you arrange to drive the Targa Tassie no matter what car (within reason) you can secure for the job. I certainly wouldn't pay the premium to support a 959 in a road rally event and it's quite realistic to plan on a total loss, so you want a car with a serious equipment level for safety. I've talked with targa participants around the world (and there are a few right here on Rennlist) and they all enjoy the event so long as they don't break the car, so get something reliable and sturdy; and keep it on the course with the shiny side up. Personally, I'd start with something like a bog stock 993, cage it, and go have fun. Once you learn the ropes, I'd go bigger with something more challenging and competitive.

As for driving he 12C, I'm not sure what that's go to do with Sasha, but please have a volley of GT3 and RS questions ready to quiz him on what's coming and how to order a GT3 to maximum effect. For the 12C, they're lined up for the asking at their Silicon Valley store, you can drive one just by showing up in a nice car and wearing a halfway decent wristwatch (yes, they're quite that obvious about their "qualification" screening. : ) I went in there one day with my daughter after horse riding (an expensive nag, but that's another story) and we both looked like, yes, we'd been riding horses, dusty, etc. but presentable and there by invitation! We were shown the courtesy of "presumed guilty" in the way NYPD cops "stop and frisk" one particular segment of the population. The previous time I showed up in the costume de rigueur for Silicon Valley tech "well healed" types and it was as if I'd landed my personal helicopter on the road out front and was escorted by virgins wafting rose petals under my feet. The sales pitch could be summed up as "if you know nothing about motorsports and driving, and you want a fast car to do the driving for you so you can jab the pedals a few times and show up in something ostentatious at "arrive in style" social events, you've come to the right place." (Lamborghini scissor doors included at no extra cost.) Of course the 12C is much more than that, but that was their positioning, reading between the lines. Both experiences cemented one thought in my mind: "This is not where I want to be." (although the rose petals thing does have a certain appeal ...) Anyway, the 12C is a YOL (yawn out loud) of a car to me. I'm horrified to think the 991 GT3 or RS might also be a YOL and it's a sad chapter of sports car history that the great names like McLaren and Porsche are to be questioned at such fundamental matters. Yes, we're getting rave reviews on the GT3 and I take the more credible folks at their word. I don't seriously expect to find myself taking "no doze" in order to drive the GT3 to the track. I expect it will be a laugh out loud riot on the track and it will beg me to un-short its shortcomings. I'm 90% eternal optimist and 10% hardened cynic. It has simply never been the case that any Porsche or any 911 especially could have been questioned as a car for an enthusiast, but here we are: Is the 991 GT3 and advance of the 911 as a sports car or an advance as a product to higher profit and broader audience? With the Sword of Damocles hanging overhead, would anyone at Porsche or any of these trusted journalists use their power and authority to say the 991 GT3 is an advance over the 997.2 GT3 RS 4.0? Here's hoping McLaren takes all the genius and "no holds barred" of the P1 and puts it into something a 911 devotee will bookmark for further reading.

WSH

Despite the typical BS written above, the 12c is the only car I've driven that I would prefer over my 3.8 RS. That includes 430 Scud, 458, etc.

The only thing I hated was the strangely shaped steering wheel...otherwise VR coupe for me please

And def buy used...they are ~$200k and dropping. I've owned 911's for 33+years, for $200k I would take a McLaren 12c ANY DAY over an RS 4.0

Bill

KaiB

And THIS is why I love you so....

TRAKCAR

This thread is a fun read and If we just keep quoting the above posts this thread will be epic.
Not YOL.

Doug23

They are both great cars but in very different ways. The GT3's (997.1 RS and 997.2 RS)are immediate - the noise, the feedback, and the driver connection with the car. The 12C is a different animal..not nearly in your face but insanely capable. It's one of the few cars that gives you vertigo purely from acceleration. I've driven both at the track and they are equally capable. Primary difference is when you drive to the track with the 12C, with the power and handling set to normal, it feels like your driving a sedan, turn both dials to Track and it turns into a raving lunatic. The RS never lets you forget it's primary purpose is on the track. I own them both and no plans to sell either....they are both truly special cars.

Tacet-Conundrum

Well let's just put it this way. I'm showing up to the event in my deceased dad's Toyota Prius. I've already known the Porsche folks since the LA Auto Show Circa 2008 and I have always dressed down. I wasn't put on earth to impress anyone and won't dress that way unless it includes getting or working with clients. Otherwise I am just some lucky stiff, like most of you, who got a Commodre 64 after my SE Racing PK-Ripper BMX bike got stolen and my dad claimed it on our home owner's insurance - well may be that isn't the way it happened for you.

After next month I just might be cross shopping A McLaren with a GT2RS. But on the track I have a lot to learn and there is much wisdom in buying a track prepped 993 at auction. I've been watching too many of these Gas Monkey shows and shows with Wayne Carini in them and see how low some of them bitchen old school 911s/964s/993s are going for. Just plain silly when you ask me.

Ever since the McLaren came out and I moved back to Bakersfield to help with my father's cancer San Francisco McLaren has literally been trying night and day to talk to me on the phone. If they can't except my 'I grew-up in North Long Beach attire during the 80s', and mind you I'm no slouch then who needs them. But as it stands at the moments its, "would you like to test drive the hard top or the Spyder?".

We will see where things go from here.

Thanks for all your input guys.

By the way I only have one friend who is showing up in a real car this year, Ferrari Daytona. If I show up in that it should be spades. But something is telling me to use the Prius with the handicap plates.

Thanks everyone.

tcsracing1

McLaren is supposedly a decent car. When depreciated it will be an exotic bargin. And they are depreciating...
Too gallardo/430 looking for me.....

For targa Tassie, you could save a few bucks and do the Targa Newfoundland.
Find a nice used 2007 911 Turbo, install clubsport cage, good seats, exe-tc shocks, rally computer and run the event like a raped ape rain or shine.
Wouldnt even need much of a crew for a solid car like that and you would be left with a decent example of the last of the manual transmission turbos when you are done

azmurciev12

i have to completely agree with post above. this is coming from an RS 4.0 and MP4 owner.

the best things about the MP4 is the POWER, comfortable ride, and stiff chassis. it's an exotic car you can use all the time and not get tired of driving. it has varying personalities -it can be a good cruiser like the best GT car you can find but turn the ***** and you have a full fledged high speed exotic that can corner and go super fast. this i think is the best attribute of the car. last sunday, i took my MP4 for 3 hour high speed twisty drive on a narrow 2 lane cross traffic road with my car group. i hadn't slept for 24 hours as my newborn wouldn't stop crying all night. i couldn't believe i was able to make it with a smile on my face. the car is that easy to drive and yet able to keep up with FGTs, RS and other exotics.

now, the RS 4.0. as mentioned above, it's the connection, sound and mechanical/analog feel of the car that i love. but given our bad roads, there are times when i just would not want to drive it. to me it's one dimensional in purpose unless you are on the highway or a smooth twisty road. but on the track, i've never driven anything as complete, reliable and confidence inspiring -not even the mclaren. the car feels so solid, the engine is linear in its delivery and the brakes are simply perfect.

now whether to get a GT2RS or an MP4, if you want a car to use often, the Mclaren is the better car. if you are collecting or want to use it sparingly and want the edge of the seat feel then the GT2RS - but I would really prefer to have an RS 4.0 for the money.

NJ-GT

Be aware of the variety of problems with the MP4-12C, the GT2 RS is very likely the most reliable Beetle made in the recent years (it just needs a reliable locking diff).

If you can handle the bland looks of a 997 GT2 RS (no different than a $38k 05 997), the lame sound, the heat soak loss of power (unless you are modifying it), and the turbo lag on normal driving (2500-4000rpm), you should be fine.

I drove the MP4-12C and almost bought it, but numbers did not make sense, giving away my Fiat and getting another $180k on top of that wasn't tempting. At that time I had driven 2 458 Italias, an ok car, but everything it does, the Scuderia does better, except the stuff that doesn't matter to me like radio, leather cushion everywhere, a digital screen with video game gauges, the smooth transmission at traffic speeds.

I drove the 458 once again after the MP4-12C, and I still prefer the dynamics of the MP4-12C (I don't like the scissor doors, but I can live with it), seating position, view, acceleration, brakes, dimensions. It feels like a Scuderia with a Corvette V8, Vette steering (steering is a little disconnected), gigantic muffler and lots of torque.

At the current prices, the MP4-12C ($205k-$215k) is priced well, but beware of maintenance costs, Fiat parts are cheap compared to Macca parts, part prices are out of proportion, and the car breaks, so budget for maintenance at least 50% of the car.

If you use the car on weekends as a pleasure car, no track, no drag racing, no autoX, no canyon roads, even a Kia Rio would be reliable, go for the 12C.

If you intend to track it, avoid the prone to limp-mode 12C, get a track car, or a car that tolerates track use (VW Beetle).

I would choose a 430 Scuderia, 4.0RS or the incoming 458 Scuderia instead of the choices above, but I use my cars on a variety of venues, and cars and coffee is not one of them.

I only wanted to give up the Scuderia, to get something different as it is the only car I have kept for over 4 years, something to do with the joy of driving it and not growing tired of it at all.

Carrera GT

You're a broken record on the Scuderia -- in a good way -- so just go spot a great one (already fortified for track driving) at those CostCo prices you've mentioned! Please!

As for what you've said about the 12C, I dunno about reliability, but yes, McLaren is not afraid to hold the white glove out for premium prices. If I was "into" McLaren, the forthcoming 12C GT would be the go. It has a real, mechanical LSD in a newly developed transaxle. They've been listening to customers about the less exciting aspects of the car and by a driving report email I just received last week, they've gone way too far; which is usually just about far enough.

As for the 2RS, the guy that bought the one I ordered said he found it a bit of a yawner and replaced it with a 458, which he now prefers over his prior Lambo. If you're sensitive to torque response, any turbo (including the McLaren) will be an issue to some degree. The other thing is, there's very few 2RS's that haven't been absorbed by the bubble wrappers, so it's an expensive thing to get one, especially since a 997.1 GT2 can be modified (as noted) and produce equivalent or better performance, but without the pedigree and long term importance of the GT2 RS.

Seth Thomas

LOL at NJ-GT. I expected that response from you! ;-)

I don't own a MP4-12C but I have spent a lot of time in the cars and will be doing more stuff with the cars this year. So far I love the cars. They are great cars where the driving experience will speak for itself. It is the best car in its price range IMHO.

Lets start by talking about the car. It has similar weight to a GT3, mid engine dry sump 3.8L Twin Turbo V8, 7-speed dual clutch transmission, suspension that is designed to be street friendly and track ready (better than Porsche's PASM or any other electronic controlled shocks), a car that is designed around the driver's position instead of the other way around, wet clutch system that won't void the warranty from using launch control, traction control system that allows you to play with the car on track or street, the overall balance of the car is better than a 458 or GT2, the sight lines out of the front of the car are similar to an open wheel car which makes driving the car an experience, and much more.

How does it drive? It is awesome. The front end response of the car is the best in its class. When you ask it to turn in for a corner at speed it responds. There isn't a pause and then turn in. This car goes. This helps give it a great sporty feel even with the suspension in its softest setting. The brakes are responsive, very similar in feel to a Porsche (which has had the best brake pedal feel for a long time to me). Hit the gas and the car wants to go. No matter what gear you are in it will go and build speed fast. The flat torque curve of the V8 is noticeable even in 7th gear.

The MP4-12C isn't the car you wife/GF/Mistress/SO will hate to ride in. It is comfortable on the street. It isn't loud like a F458 can be at times. If she wants to drive it she can. It is that good of a car.

Now the question is would I take the MP4-12C over my 4.0? No not at this time in my life. I love my GT3 RS 4.0. I like the noises it makes. I like the challenge of driving the car fast with the feedback it gives me. I like changing gears in the Porsche while having to heal/toe on the downshifts. The 4.0 is raw, the McLaren is refined.

Here is a video from a day at Canadian Tire Motorsport Park with me behind the wheel of a MP4-12C. Don't worry guys I won't quit my day job....

Nizer

A lot to be said for these old coal burners, especially if they get you preferred parking....

NJ-GT

Seth, keep the 4.0RS, keep it. It is a keeper.

I lost the window to get one, and I wanted one, I was just no willing to let the Fiat go. Got greedy and paid the price.