Carrera GT

NB. Tangent Alert: The following has zip to do with buying a McLaren 12C. : ) Sorry!

The Radical is by no means a "heebie jeebies" experience to drive -- though I like the expression -- and that part of driving the Radical in SR3 format is not the fear of consequences (that's true for all open cockpit racing, two wheels or four) but the peak G's that are beyond anything a 911 produces short of an RSR (or so I would imagine.) It just makes no sense to be accelerating where the Radical can accelerate but the 911 is trail braking and clawing for the apex.

It's also certified to the same FIA crash testing as Le Mans cars.
http://www.radicalsportscars.com/uk/...dical-rxc.aspx

Driving a 2010 SR3 recently at Laguna, I was impressed by the engineering of the car two generations removed from the 2014 Radicals. These were all top shelf brand components from brakes and data acquisition to carbon composite aero and titanium hardware over a tube frame with a very solid pedal box and my 6 foot dimensions kept my helmet well within the rollover space and my shoulders inside the hard points of the cockpit. Safety compared to a 911 was no compromise.

Here's a peek at the new engine room:



I think that's a pretty respectable job done. And I have no complaints about the engineering that's gone into the exterior form. This looks like somewhere I want to be:



While the RXC is a car that small boys will dream about, it doesn't hold a candle to the couture finish of the BAC Mono, which could turn out to be as svelte and sumptuous as the Caparo, with the pronounced advantage of not driving like a slippery pig when it's below aero speeds (as per Stig's laps.) The Mono is one of the top two or three quickest at Stop Gear's aerodrome, but the RXC will be in another league as far as performance and "only" $144K-ish. Yes, it looks like a low budget LMP car because that's where it was born and raced to challenge the establishment, before skulduggery and rules racing cost too much for a (very, very) small company to compete with the big guns spending "rounding error" budgets off their billion dollar balance sheets and marketing programs for brand advertising activities in motorsport.

I think both the BAC Mono and Radical RXC are real, semi-but-no-really- road-going cars and a look into a near future of cars that might take that prized spot in the garage of a track day junkie where previously an RS or GT3 would have parked.

http://magazine.windingroad.com/issue/105

The "base" engine is a bespoke V6, with their "micro-V8" (which is their own engineering, utilizing the internals of two Hayabusa motorcycles engines to develop a 10K rpm race engine with 40hr service interval) and the V6 will operate "road car" service intervals measured in 1000's of km's.

The RXC is a road legal car, fully enclosed cabin, sequential 50ms pneumatic shift, auto-blipping, 480hp, Le Mans racer for the price of a nice Cabriolet. It runs on the smell of an oily rag and eats 17 inch slicks for $1000 a set before breakfast.

The privateer racer versions of Radicals have their names at or near the top of famous events and venues with lap records and hill climbs wins against everything from the BAC Mono to factory teams from Audi, Mercedes, etc. and impressively quick times at the Nurburgring and everywhere in-between.

I remember the days when I was young and dumb enough to run a Ducati race bike at Laguna and I wouldn't quit till I'd ripped the elbows off my Ku****ani's and taped 'em up and ripped 'em again. Nowadays, that bike, like my memory, gathers dust; and those lap times just keep getting quicker every time I think of them. But for a realistic way to stress the adrenal gland -- given Porsche abdicating from the track day car market, and my marginal interest in the Stingray -- I think the RXC could mean it's time to learn to drive a very different car.

That said, I'll take a 993 GT2 and run 10 seconds slower per lap any day. : )

Tacet-Conundrum

I had not given it a thought one bit in testing the Spyder - but like you said they designed it as such...

Driving the McLaren how much in the way of Ferrari can you see in the details? To my understanding when they were forming McLAREN didn't they take some engineers and Ferrari "Brain-Trust" with them. Though I totally understand the Englishman's POV in designing something that works and will stay work - in this Modern era... I know its nothing like wiring two 6 Volt batteries in series.

By the way CJ, what is the round trip between your residence and Angel stadium? If I had your Gig I would be coming in from Belmont Shore in the LBC to the Orange Crush for work.

savyboy

I've really liked the SP from day 1, but vs a Mono it is compromised by driving position (two-seater) and it's an aero car with the compromises that come along with that as well. For some those attributes may be considered a benefit depending upon driving skill and desire to haul baggage (another person ) but not me.

PS, the SP would be a terrible car to street drive if you had that desire. The Mono is soft and cushy and easily titled.

That has been my long-held opinion as well but I'm open minded to the possibility of the RXC being the exception. Well, in regards to quality at least...

Been past the Radical shop at Spring Mountain several times, looking at the Radicals in various states of undress thinking "dang those are some tinker-toy looking POS" for being as fast as they are.

If the RXC comes to market at $144k'ish it'll be a strong value proposition for a serious tracking enthusiast with advanced driving ability. But like CJ notes, you don't have the wind in your face, it has a compromised driving position (not center), and you have big aero which will give you some awesome lap times, try to kill you when things go wrong, and knock your dental work loose at slower speeds (the necessarily stiff springing for an aero car). You have the skill set to deal with it, but 99% of people reading this do not.

I hope you splurge on an RXC because I want to see one in the flesh. And you need more of a challenge than the car you are tracking now anyway

Carrera GT

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some of the older Radicals, especially the track rat rental cars, can be pretty sad looking things, but that "rid hard, put up wet" appearance belies the lap times and handling.The RXC is a long ways off. Maybe 2014. I was surprised by the $144K number. Much the same as the SR8 (if someone wants wind-in-your-face open cockpit, that's the ticket.) But it's a much, much cheaper car to build now that Radical is a mature operation and the power train is no longer an overstressed Hayabusa engine. The Radical platform is center seat (single seat) and that's a desirable setup for the sports racer competitions. While I rarely take passengers and I'm even rarer to be the passenger, I like the option to have an instructor ride-a-long or show how it's done. There's only so much you get out of data and video. Sure, there's no other way on a bike, just keep your front wheel on their back wheel and don't let go, but in a car, "being there" is invaluable. For me though, I read a recent bit on how and why people die in motorsports (happy to share) and the bottom line was impact trauma to the occupant -- in closed or open cockpit. Not fire, not deceleration, but impact, with the numbers only getting worse for the open cockpit scenario.

Conekilr

That "tinker-toy looking POS" design works very well. As someone who have been racing a SR3RS for the last 3 years, the simplicity of the design makes it very easy to work on and the car is very sturdy and reliable....

Now back to the regularly scheduled program, the MP4. Love the look of the car but have yet to drive one to see how it compares to the 458.

Tacet-Conundrum

Back to the MP4. Does McLaren still do the fittings for the drivers like they did on their F1s?

I think that would just be a.good excuse for a.flight to Jolly Ole England.

And let us hope they update their ECU software like System's Software on computers. Just so they can eek out a few more foot.pounds here or there.

TheStiglet

Tacet-Conundrum, I fully understand your conundrum! It’s quite an expensive lark to have to drop a few hundred grand to determine if you actually like/want a car. A 20 minute test drive is not usually very communicative of the subtleties and nuances of vehicle ownership. Your question was originally stated regarding the “Porsche Turbo GT2RS or GT3/4.0” vs McLaren 12C. I decided to write my own mini-review and have taken the liberty of throwing the 458 Italia in the mix. Of course this is entirely my subjective point of view and many people will disagree. I hope that my experiences will help elucidate your options and guide you towards a satisfactory purchase. BTW – McLaren does not offer custom seat fittings. Perhaps in the P1, but not on the 12C, in fact they don’t offer any seat type/size options. Also, once you drive the 12C, I seriously doubt that your conclusion will be “if only we could add more foot pounds”. The car is a rocket ship and raw speed is definitely not on its list of weaknesses. =)

If you have any specific questions let me know.


Ferrari 458 Italia vs McLaren 12C vs Porsche RS 4.0

Three of the greatest cars of all time, made within 2 years of each other. Is this the ultimate shoot-out?
About me: I've owned all three, tracked all three, with only the McLaren being an ownership experience of less than 18 months. I race cars for fun, a track junkie for sure, and a petrol-head through and through.

Firstly, it's important to note that the 458 and 12C both cost 40% more than the RS4.0. Factoring that in, the RS is a veritable bargain. Also the gap between all of them is quite small; they are all brilliant cars and my review is probably irrelevant if the buyer is part of the buff-'n-shine crowd and just wants something to drive to the country club for dinner (in which case, pick the one that is aesthetically most appealing).

Only one car here is a track car. That's the RS4.0. No doubt the others are plenty fast on track. But they really are high-performance street cars. The RS feels & performs like a thinly veiled track day special. For a track day monster, you'd really want to modify the mid-engined cars further or just buy the Monte Carlo/Challenge or GT3 variant.

Steering:
Porsche is the benchmark for steering tactility. McLaren are comparable. That's quite a compliment, however, the nose is so light in a 911 that that sensitivity is further amplified. The 12C has better weight distribution, but this hurts the front end resolution just a tad. The 458's steering feels initially very exciting, the car is pointy. This makes a typical Sunday morning spirited-drive more stimulating. However, with time, the steering rack starts to feel exaggerated in some way. I'm not really sure what this is due to. But on track the 458 rack has a nervous feeling to it (N.B. this is the only car that I did not custom align).

Chassis/Suspension:
The 911 is flawed. It's rear weightedness is fabulous under braking, and for tractive grip in the rain, but it's otherwise flawed. The 12C and 458 excel in this department. These balanced chassis combined with rear wheel drive allow for tremendous slip angles and benign on-the-limit driving (read: the 458 is great for drifting!). The 12C's carbon tub adds that extra rigidity that feels flawless no matter the road the surface. The suspension in the 12C is uncanny, in "Normal' mode it rides as comfortably as most sport sedans (perhaps better). It's easy to imagine using this car as a daily driver. The RS has very soft helper springs that really aid in reduction of NVH during highway driving, but at times make the car feel too compliant. Both the 458 and RS use magnetorheological dampers. The 12C uses diagonally cross linked dampers attached directly to the carbon tub. The dampers are electronically controlled through a hydraulic pump. This system with no anti-roll bars is by far the best Jeckyll and Hyde behaviour in any road car ever produced. It's flat and stiff on track and supple as a leopard on the road.

Drive Train:
This is tricky. The 458 is just about the best NA 8 cylinder motor on the market and the RS has =the= best NA 6 cylinder motor. Until the 918 Spider is released, I believe they both hold the record for 125BHP/litre in a production NA engine. The 9K redline in the 458 is astounding. One expects the 12C's turbos to be peaky trying to make 616BHP, but they're not; it feels linear, almost NA in nature. Impressive. The simplicity in the RS to press one button to turn off all the electronic nanny's is refreshing and effective. Click - now I'm a race car. The 458 takes a little more work, turn the Manettino to death mode, hold it for 2 seconds, and boom - I'm a race car. This is where for me the 12C loses the plot. To save weight there is no mechanical LSD in the 12C. It uses very clever software to implement multiple functions utilizing the rear brakes. These functions include wheel slip control (so a virtual LSD) and brake steer. Brake steer helps rotate the car particularly well in medium and high speed corners, it's uncanny. But once you try to disable all the TC and SC (which McLaren clearly don't want you to do, as it takes multiple buttons and two sequences of 5 second holds to achieve), you have a car with an open rear diff, and no brake steer. The car now understeers on entry and on exit. With the electronics on, but in the most aggressive mode (Track) the 12C wants to be effective, so it limits throttle induced wheel spin. Effectively you can't steer the 12C with your right foot, and you aren't allowed the fun/control/risk to modulate throttle induced oversteer. In the 458 I can turn a corner, throttle induce a drift for 100 yards and grin from ear to ear. In the 12C it is not possible. The 458 E-Diff allows Ferrari to implement a differential with programmable personalities, it's effective at either protecting a driver from themselves, or providing the feel of an unadulterated race car, or somewhere in between. For this, despite the extra weight, it must be lauded.

Brakes:
In terms of raw pedal feel and reduced weight transfer (due to the location of the engine), the 911 still has an advantage. However, the 12C's anchors feel fantastic, but the real clincher is the airbrake. The airbrake not only slows down the car much more rapidly, but it also resists the unweighting of the rear end, and does it proportionately to speed (since it's an aero device). It takes a little accustomization, but once adapted, it's a marvelous piece of technology. The automatic downshifting of the 458 under braking is a fun piece of electronics. Simply hold the down shift paddle and brake at the same time and it will downshift as fast as possible. If you want to feel like an F1 driver, this is it.

Sound:
High revving NA motors will always win the aural category. It's simple, the less you put between the combustion chamber and your ear the more exciting it's going to sound. The 9,000RPM redline of the 458 with a perfectly tuned and very loud exhaust is simply astounding. Find you favourite local tunnel, drop to first gear, open all windows, mat the throttle. If that doesn't put the silliest Cheshire-cat-grin on your face, every-single-time, then you should check yourself for a pulse. The RS sounds (predictably) Teutonicly sterile, but purposeful none-the-less. It's quieter than some of its predecessors and is definitely improved by a centre muffler delete (after market). The 12C sounds great idling and at lower speeds; there's a sort of sub-bass warble (as if you're on a space ship), but it fails to deliver the spine tingling sensation as it approaches the 8,500RPM redline due to the turbos attenuating and dampening the high frequency output. The 12C's sport exhaust option is a marked improvement, but at $6,500 seems rather steeply priced.

Power/Speed:
616BHP, Standing quarter mile in 10.55 and 0-100MPH in 6 seconds. The 12C is undebatably monstrously fast and the quickest here by far. It's space ship, warp-speed fast. It does it in a very composed and approachable manner. The 458 appears to the passenger to go just as fast by howling in your ears. The RS is outgunned with "merely" a 6 cylinder engine. It's the fastest NA 911 ever produced, and it feels like it. It's got the biggest stock tyres of the bunch, and utilizes that mechanical grip very effectively. Combined with its proper wing it should be faster around most circuits than the other two.

Transmission:
The LED tach and the 'FWwwap' sound of the 458 double clutch gearbox are addictive. The alacrity with which the 458 changes gear, seems at times, telepathic. The 12C is not much behind, but interestingly is hurt more by the excessive resistance in the flappy paddles than a short coming in the tranny. The 12C also doesn't particularly like dropping down into first. This is the favourite gear of all 458 drivers, the downshift into first as you approach a traffic light and listen to the snarl, snap, burble and pop of the ferrocious V8. The RS 4.0's 6 speed is exactly what you'd hope for and expect in a manual. Precise, tight, well defined gates and an easily modulatable clutch.

Sense of occasion:
Clearly this is the least objective of categories. But in supercar territory it's definitely a meaningful factor in how and why buyers justify the inordinate cost per mile they endure for ownership of these craft. Ferrari is the strongest brand in the world, and the 458 looks other worldly! The 12C has lines that can look a bit soft, but the car still has a lot of presence in person (much better than in photos). Dihedral doors are never a let down; with them open, onlookers are wondering if the car is about to take off, or just turn into a Transformer. The RS with it's unsubtle wing and racing stripes creates a very sporty aura, but in a landscape dotted with 911s for the last 50 years, it's working very hard to seem exotic.

Electronic aids:
For launch control, the 12C has the most effective TC capability. The 911 TC is fairly weak implementation. The Porsche's nannies really are that. They work as advertised, but they really aren't designed to make you go quicker, merely that they make it harder for you spin your car. In the 458 and 12C this goal is also achieved, but performance is also part of the functionality. The TC in both cars is very effective. It feels numb and boring to me, but there's no question that in less than grippy conditions, these electronics have high sampling rates and can respond far faster than a human and so there are accelerative performance gains to be had. However, since we are not racing in these cars, I fail to appreciate these modes. Overall the 12C feels the most definitely designed to work the best with all electronics on. The slip angles allowed are sufficiently high, and the brake steer combined with intelligent wing/airbrake functions make the car feel highly dynamic. The 12C's aids are better, but since the 458 functions well, both with and without them, the edge has to go to the Italians. As far as I'm concerned, I'm only interested in driving with TC/SC off.

Cabin:
The CF bucket seats in the car from Zuffenhausen are by far the most supportive for spirited driving, followed by the optional CF race seats in Maranello's offering. It's disappointing that the boys in Woking still don't have a throne with harness pass throughs on offer. Conversely, Woking's understanding of how to design a cockpit is well honed. The ergonomic designers have a masterpiece. The layout is functional, considerate and still beautiful. The airplane vents are the icing on the cake. Zee Germans have a no fuss interior, sumptuously wrapped in Alcantara. Forward visibiltiy is excellent and nearly as good as the McLaren. Rearward is better in the Porsche. The 458 has the most debatable design; The zig-zag lump in the middle of the dash is unexpected, but not entirely convincing. The LCDs to the sides of the tach are undersized and harder to navigate that they should be (especially if you order the Nav system).

Misc:
All three brands offer nose-lift functionality today, which in some regions and some driveways is truly necessary. The 12C is the only one that has no weight penalty as it cleverly uses the hydraulic pump to raise the cars using the dynamic dampers. The downside is that they are much slower to move, and the interface on a stalk is clunky (compared to a single button press on the other two cars). Another nice touch from Porsche is the selection of three 12V outlets in the main cabin. One for a radar detector, one in the ash tray, and one in the arm rest; very considerate indeed. Unlike the 458's single outlet that is poorly placed and mostly useless. Ferrari let’s you order your 458 CF racing buckets in different sizes! Medium & Large are available in the USA (Small - only in Europe). Most dealers warn against the Medium, but let me assure you that unless you’re considerably overweight, the Medium seat is fantastic! (Although the seats in the RS are medium sized by default and are actually more supportive).

Summary:
In summary, you've heard it all before. The fastest, perhaps most complete car is the 12C, and the only one that I could live with as a daily driver. The 458 is the most fun to drive and simply sounds incredible and probably turns the most heads. The RS is the perfect arrive and drive track day special, and has a lot lower douche-bag factor as you're 'only' driving a Porsche. Until McLaren implement a mechanical LSD for the 12C, it'll never be my favourite supercar, and certainly not my first choice for a Sunday morning blast. But I'm old school, and truly love driving with everything switched off, my life in my hands. That's probably not most owners/drivers of these cars, so this criticism is to be taken in that context. If you do prefer to drive with the skull and crossbones illuminated in the dash, then on a Sunday morning grab the keys for the RS or the 458. If you like some extra modern safety then they are all very stimulating and better in their own ways. To debate which of Picasso, Van Gogh or Kandinsky are objectively better is futile. They are all brilliant and beautiful. A different horse for a different course. However, the only car I'll keep forever is the RS 4.0. It's not faster or better...it's less complicated, it's mechanical, it makes you do all the work and it's therefore the most engaging and stimulating of the three, whilst still being a four wheeled missile.


Official Scores:

Best = 3 Middle = 2 Worst = 1
RS4.0 458i 12C
Steering 3 1 2
Chassis 1 2 3
Drive Train 2 3 1
Brakes 2 1 3
Sound 2 3 1
Power/Speed 1 2 3
Transmission 2 3 1
Driver Feel 3 2 1
Sense of occasion 1 3 2
Electronic aids 1 3 2
Cabin 2 1 3
Total: 20 24 22

TRAKCAR

Where do we vote for post of the month?

Must confess to be envious but man, thanks for taking the time to post the above, coming from someone who's owned all three, tracked all three, with only the McLaren being an ownership experience of less than 18 months. and races cars for fun, a track junkie for sure, and a petrol-head through and through.

Great read

CRex

Plan on spending time progressively through the different modes (both powertrain and suspension). This "clinical" car's got a mean side--it can and does slide around in "Sport" and above. Let the DCT do its own thing--it's brilliant. Powertrain is brutally efficient and doesn't feel like an FI powerplant at all. Stock brakes are no good (airbrakes help but the pads don't). Stock tires even worse (grossly inadequate), and will most certainly be the limiting factor in your experience.

That. Checking those two sites once a month is enough to make me feel stupider.

allans

Great post ! Comparing all three in the way you selected is very clear and understandable. I've owned and tracked the 4.0 and you are right on with your observations. I have limited experience with the 458 and McLaren but, from everything I've read or observed your conclusions seem very well founded. Than you for posting. Allan

TheStiglet

Indeed the street tyres are just that. The Corsa version is not bad (that's what I have). I prefer Hoosier R6 rubber! However, the street wheels being 19" F and 20" R make finding semi-slick/R-Compound tyres that fit, nearly impossible. I really don't see why these manufacturers are insisting on going bigger and bigger on wheels...

I agree the 12C's pads are mediocre. For me the bigger issue initially was the brake fluid, but that's quite normal on all these cars. First action, replace brake fluid with higher temp product such as Motul 600 or SRF. It took me no less than my second 15 minute session on track in the 12C to achieve a very squidgy pedal. The carbon brakes on the 458 stood up to the job fairly well (in stock form). Generally I just assume that all cars need fluid and pads, because the mfg is more concerned about making a squeal free/safe experience for all drivers in all temperatures. Track pads don't work well in the cold, nor are they quiet.

Carrera GT

In other words, drive a 911.

ps. Thanks. Very enjoyable reading.

TRAKCAR

Hahaha, uhm, yes and that. Made me feel bad for selling the winner for me.

azmurciev12

i took my 12C to a relatively short and tight track (3.3km) and my brake pedal was spongy and went to the floor in 3 hot laps (and it wasn't even 8/10 or 9/10ths as the brake feel never gave me the confidence so i was still taking it easy and learning the car). granted i only had steel brakes, the difference to the PCCB of my RS 4.0 is immense. the 12C steel brakes together with the airbrake will stop the car with confidence and in a short distance (as it has done during a mile run) but it was quite disappointing on the track where you really get to test its capabilities. the RS 4.0 brakes was just perfect lap after lap.

i thought of changing the fluid as many say on the MCL forum that the fluid may have been compromised. but the Motul 600 or SRF are DOT4 fluids while the Mclaren's requirement is DOT 5.1, hence the selection is very limited.

anyway, i would also agree very much with everything you mentioned in your review of the 3 vehicles.

richk

Jesse thank you for the excellent write up and your overall thoughts. My two primary cars right now are very different but I love them both. I have a 2011 911GTS coupe with PDK and a 2014 Nissan GTR black edition. The GTS is a momentum car and the GTR is a powerful beast. I also have an M6 cab because I live in sunny LALA land.

I have owned over 100 cars including CGT, 458, 599, and multiple Porsche turbos. My 2 cents says the current NA Porsche are the most fun for the enthusiast driver. The 458 is very easy to drive fast and I have not as of today owned the Mac.