M3EvoBR

My wife rides to the gym in my race car some times ... bitches, but goes. She used to drive my GTR, drives a C63, loved my GT3RS but didn't like the 996 GT2...997.2 GT3s are really easy cars on the road, but get what attracts you.
Track ? GT3
Street Ferrari.

I had a Gallardo that lasted 31 days in my garage.... no more. Hated.... too much attention bla bla bla.
GT3RS was all grey, so would be under the radar.
I don't think I would like to be seen as that guy...

CRex

Sorry for the OT, but it's my strong opinion that Lambos are horrible drivers' cars to begin with. By any metric, period. Perhaps they're great for people who need to flash their wallets in order to get laid. But I have yet to come across any respectable driver who claim to enjoy the driving experience of a Gallardo/Murc/Aventador.

And don't even mention the word track in a lambo. Ask Sir Adrian LOL:

CAlexio

Sound of a Gallardo is pretty epic, that must add something to the driving pleasure no?

A 2wd manual Gallardo is a special car

WanderingPurist

Hi,

Just read the hating on Lambos (OT), which seems somewhat common here and on AMG Private Lounge -

"I wouldn't be caught dead..." mainly because of the brash in your face johnny rocketship styling of Lambos, even though same poster loves the Mac fax machine...(AMG PL)

"...Perhaps they're great for people who need to flash their wallets in order to get laid." Wow, that's harsh!

I do understand some of the underlying causes of this hate (Lambo drivers tend to be young, self made, and often too full of themselves...) but then...

I stayed away from Porsches (my loss!) for over 30 years because of the image of Porsche drivers (I didn't want to be one of them!) and only got over that due to the incredible roll Porsche is on as a company, products, and that just gotta have it can't get it out of my mind memory of the GT3RS (yes, I pulled the trigger; was swayed by the "real car guys" feel of Porsche execs I interacted with at the 918 intro at Barber MSP and deal sealed with test drive of GT3RS)

The irony? The 7.2 GT3RS gets as much attention (to my mind, not a good thing!) as my Diablo! (well, nearly as much, certainly much more than I expected...)

So I've got three questions -

1. why are Lambo's so hated by other brand fan boys? (I tend to see more Bull hatred by AMG / P-car / F-Car - well, less so by F-car fan boys, more stiff upper lip dismissiveness... - of Lambos than for other marques)

Is it the over the top styling?
The typical drivers / owners?
The corporate / brand image?

2. "...it's my strong opinion that Lambos are horrible drivers' cars to begin with" and "I have yet to come across any respectable driver who claim to enjoy the driving experience of a Gallardo/Murc/Aventador..."

Is that based on personal experience or hearsay? Personally, having driven (at 6/10th, not 8/10th or more) the Diablo, Murc, Aventador, and nearly all flavours of the Gallardo on various tracks (Sepang, Shanghai, Fontana, NJMP, Hailar, Inner Mongolia) I would tend to agree that the big bulls are not truly track cars but certainly the Gallardos can give most comparable marques and models a run for their money. Porsche's tend to come "track ready" but with the proper fluids and set up, F-cars and L-cars can be too...I happen to run somewhat regularly with a group of pretty decent drivers (they are usually within seconds of pro times on local So Cal tracks) and several of them are running Gallardos with comments like "bullet proof"...

3. Do you get lots of attention with your P-car on the street, at the gas pump, like I do? And if you don't, how do you do it? I wish my GT3RS was a bit lower profile; that's why I won't drive my Diablo without shades and a cap. :-(

Above in all seriousness and sincerity, without any sarcasm; this is my first post here and I don't want to start on the wrong foot! But the strong words dissing Lambos (and seeming tendency, with few exceptions, to dismiss the F-cars as well...) just really got my curiosity going.

Cheers,

Thomas

CRex

Wow, Thomas welcome! I must have said something awfully controversial or immensely profound to entice to you the first post. Something tells me it ain't the latter... welcome to RL anyhow!

The classic Lambos earned their place in the hall of fame fair and square. Anyone who can manage to hang with a mad car like the Diablo and Countach, much less handle one in traffic, deserves kudos in my book.

IMO that glorious generation of larger-than-life cars has attracted some wannabe-LTL owners for the contemporary lambos. Which is unfortunate. That lambos are excellent showpieces (and tend to be used as such) probably aggravated those perceptions.

My biggest gripe comes from having lived with a Gallardo SE (on loan from a good friend) for a week and having done meaningful track time in a few others: a Balboni, a 560, a 570SL and Murc 640. With the exception of the Balboni, these cars just don't do corner entry. The inherently limited front camber and 4WD really butcher their cornering characteristics. Excellent straight line machines, these, with noises that dwarf the devil's howl. But they just don't corner for me. Have tracked them at Laguna (absolutely horrid: constant understeer followed by snap oversteer, and the feeling of a "lazy" chassis), Sepang (worse, but the straights were fun) and a number of Asian tracks including SIC, GIC, ZIC. In each case I started the sessions with more respect for the cars than I ended with. And I distinctly remember the relief when I returned the loaner to my friend--I've had better chemistry than Hertz rentals than that wannabe batmobile.

I didn't own any of the above cars, but observe that trackside reliability (heat-related) has been a consistent issues in the events I attended. And for those who don't regularly track, maintenance has not been kind either... In my immediate circle of friends I've seen two engine failures...one went up in flame (an SL), another other blew white smoke on the highway and seized within miles (another SE).

In all, my gripe mostly has to do with an elevated public perception vs. reality. It's totally possible that I haven't spent enough time in any particular car to develop the requisite affection and skills to maximize said platform. And to be fair, one of the pro coaches I learn from has very successfully campaigned a LP560 GT3 in the Macau GP (two pro-class wins) against GT3R's and 430/458 GT3s over the years. He was very complimentary of the straight line speed of the 560 GT3.

My opinion is just what it is: the opinion of one. And I'm just a trackrat with a VW beetle...

p.s. I have no issues with Fiats (even tho we like to make fun of them just to get some long-time RL'ers riled up.) Nor with AMG or M or anything else for that matter. Just lambos.

vf430

Thomas, I share the same subjective opinion on lambos. I have owned Ferrari's and Porsche's and have a lot of seat time in several Lambos. I just don't like them as much , they are not drivers cars. AWD makes the whole car feel lazy , steering feedback not as quick and direct like Ferrari or Porsche. E Gear is too slow and rough compared to F1 , PDK or DCT systems. They just feel like a big Audi with a fighter jet cockpit feel , it distances the driver from the car. GT3 and Ferrari are so alive and feel connected to the driver. In a Lambo i felt like the car is taking me for a ride.

To me they sound good and look good that's it. RWD , Light weight, great gearbox is what makes a good sports car. I was amazed by how alive my 2005 430 felt after a back to back test drive of a 2009 560-4. My 430 was a whole generation older.

WanderingPurist

"Wow, Thomas welcome! I must have said something awfully controversial or immensely profound to entice to you the first post. Something tells me it ain't the latter... welcome to RL anyhow!"

How about a little of both?

:-) I've long been a student of the subjective aspects of what makes us tick - why the GT3 is not the fastest nor quickest yet often and nearly always considered "the best" the objective numbers notwithstanding.

BTW - sorry to the OP, don't mean to hijack the thread, and I agree with nearly all the comments about the 430 vs GT3 question so far - they are all pretty much in agreement, just varying in degrees.

"The classic Lambos earned their place in the hall of fame fair and square. Anyone who can manage to hang with a mad car like the Diablo and Countach, much less handle one in traffic, deserves kudos in my book."

Kudos accepted. ;-) Seriously, when asked about my feelings about the Diablo, I always say it's a love - hate - when I'm in the driver's seat, I am cursing the idiocy of the design - the ergonomics; the long throw of the gearshift; the questionable engineering of the support systems (electronics, electricals, fans, HVAC, etc) and as soon as I get out, I can't wait to get back in and torture myself.

:-)

"IMO that glorious generation of larger-than-life cars has attracted some wannabe-LTL owners for the contemporary lambos. Which is unfortunate. That lambos are excellent showpieces (and tend to be used as such) probably aggravated those perceptions. "

I personally feel that, much like most of us 997 / GT3 (RS) owners bemoan the "loss of soul" of the 991 (I'm not sure how much of it is "substantive" and how much insubstantial nostalgia or ego preservation) Lambos lost much of their "soul" after the Diablo (for me, starting with the 6.0...) even though by most accounts the post-Audi models are for the most part reliable and work the way they are supposed to, and built like German cars...whatever that means.

"My biggest gripe comes from having lived with a Gallardo SE (on loan from a good friend) for a week and having done meaningful track time in a few others: a Balboni, a 560, a 570SL and Murc 640. With the exception of the Balboni, these cars just don't do corner entry. The inherently limited front camber and 4WD really butcher their cornering characteristics. Excellent straight line machines, these, with noises that dwarf the devil's howl. "

I tend to agree with you on most counts, including the 4WD Gallardos, which is why, for me, it's Balboni, 550 or other 2WD variant, or nothing. The Big Bulls were never known for their handling ...

"But they just don't corner for me. Have tracked them at Laguna (absolutely horrid: constant understeer followed by snap oversteer, and the feeling of a "lazy" chassis), Sepang (worse, but the straights were fun) and a number of Asian tracks including SIC, GIC, ZIC."

Objectively, I can see that with the 4WD models, but surprised to read that vis a vis my own experience with the 2WD models.

" In each case I started the sessions with more respect for the cars than I ended with. And I distinctly remember the relief when I returned the loaner to my friend--I've had better chemistry than Hertz rentals than that wannabe batmobile."

Ouch! But without any irony, to each their own, and by learning why you feel the way you do (especially since your opinions are at least grounded in seat time and what seems to be some decent driving skills or experience) helps me understand "the bigger picture."


"I didn't own any of the above cars, but observe that trackside reliability (heat-related) has been a consistent issues in the events I attended. And for those who don't regularly track, maintenance has not been kind either... In my immediate circle of friends I've seen two engine failures...one went up in flame (an SL), another other blew white smoke on the highway and seized within miles (another SE)."

That is unfortunate, and if I didn't know any better (ie, know of an alternative sample space equally large or larger which contradicts that conclusion) I'd take your experiences and first / direct second hand knowledge, add to it the unusually common Youtube videos and news reports of Lambos in accidents and stupid driving situations (ever seen the Diablo pirouette from a red light at Church and Sunset? I know that intersection well, and I can't for the life of me figure how to make my Diablo do that...) and reasonably conclude Lambos were all dogs...or donkeys.



"In all, my gripe mostly has to do with an elevated public perception vs. reality. It's totally possible that I haven't spent enough time in any particular car to develop the requisite affection and skills to maximize said platform. And to be fair, one of the pro coaches I learn from has very successfully campaigned a LP560 GT3 in the Macau GP (two pro-class wins) against GT3R's and 430/458 GT3s over the years. He was very complimentary of the straight line speed of the 560 GT3."

Yeah, having such an "extreme" reputation does have its handicaps, and I get what you mean. The only area where Lambo's reputation doesn't fall short is in the body design department - put an F-Car, any P-car, Aston, or other production exotic / hyper car together in a parking lot and the crowds will gather around the Lambo, almost guaranteed. This has its pluses and minuses...

"My opinion is just what it is: the opinion of one. And I'm just a trackrat with a VW beetle..."

thanks for being willing to share that opinion!

"p.s. I have no issues with Fiats (even tho we like to make fun of them just to get some long-time RL'ers riled up.) Nor with AMG or M or anything else for that matter. Just lambos. "

Wow; I had thought Lambos were just part of "the other clan" but apparently they are in an outcast group by themselves!

ps: My Diablo (and it is named well!) has turned out to be more reliable than my brand new when bought 2010 E63 and with fewer (ok, just as many) gremlins as my 2005 CL65...

Cheers,

Thomas

WanderingPurist

Hi,

Hope I'm not breaking any protocols answering each post individually in a reply post; I'm a newbie and learning the ropes. Hit me with a wet newspaper when I do wrong!

"Thomas, I share the same subjective opinion on lambos. I have owned Ferrari's and Porsche's and have a lot of seat time in several Lambos. I just don't like them as much , they are not drivers cars. AWD makes the whole car feel lazy , steering feedback not as quick and direct like Ferrari or Porsche. E Gear is too slow and rough compared to F1 , PDK or DCT systems. They just feel like a big Audi with a fighter jet cockpit feel , it distances the driver from the car. "

I agree about the post Diablo AWD models, though the VT Diablos manage to retain much of the RWD feel and dynamics, imho. The 2WD Gallardos are much better in all the areas you noted, though admittedly not in the area of steering feel or response; Porsche particularly, and Ferrari in general, seem to have much better steering feel.

Now about transmission flavours, that's a whole 'nother discussion thread...as in, I'd rather give up the speed of the PDK vis a vis three pedal manual or even single clutch automanuals if I could save the weight...but I hope to visit that in another thread...

"GT3 and Ferrari are so alive and feel connected to the driver. In a Lambo i felt like the car is taking me for a ride."

I agree with you about the GT3 and 430, though the 456 was...ahem...seriously, after the GT3RS, even the basic GT3 feels soft and wallowy! (sigh) I had this idealized memory of the Performante, but after a few laps at NJMP a few weeks ago, even the Performante felt wallowy and soft. Man, the GT3RS really has spoiled me for any other performance car...good or bad...


"To me they sound good and look good that's it. RWD , Light weight, great gearbox is what makes a good sports car. I was amazed by how alive my 2005 430 felt after a back to back test drive of a 2009 560-4. My 430 was a whole generation older."

You should try a Balboni or even basic 550-2 vis a vis your 430...it might not change your relative opinion but it probably, hopefully, will change your opinion of Lambos across the board (as in, not dismiss them across the board)

Cheers, and thanks for your comments.

Thomas

thedoctor

In terms of which is quicker around a track and even in a straight line, my experience is that the GT3 is (unexplainably) quicker. My 996 GT3 mkII gives F430's a hard time and in some encounters was quicker. We are talking 380hp vs 480hp here, so it makes no sense.

Nevertheless, here is a video of me chasing a modded F430 (R-rubber, exhaust, ECU work etc.) around a track. Driver is a friend of mine and has approx. same driving skills and experience as me. I found the GT3 appeared to be slightly quicker on the long straight aswell.

General Jack

Holy thread hijack on the Lambos! j/k

Funny enough, I have more seat time in a Gallardo than I do in a 430 or GT3 (none...), and the Gallardo is not on my list.

Agree, the Gallardo driving experience just doesn't do it for me, and I don't necessarily want the attention (a drawback for going Ferrari too...). The sound of a Gallardo is pretty sweet though, a brass bass symphony.

For me, the only Gallardo to evenly remotely consider would be the LP560-2 (rwd).

tdf360

Surprising. I have an F430 (weekend fun car) and a C6 Z06 (track car) and I have digital data from both. Acceleration curves can be laid over one another with essentially no variation, and the Z06 accelerates with, ahem, vigor. Seems like both cars should handle a 380 bhp GT3 pretty easily in a straight line.

- Gary

Joe@Fabspeed

General jack...........if you have the garage space.............here is some great logical fun......... pick up a 360 Spider for $85K and a 2007 GT3 for $70 and have both cars in the garage. Prices can vary but this scenario is have your cake and east it too!

The F430 Spider F1 is an amazing car too. Everyone should have a late model Ferrari at some point in life. Enjoy the weekend.