Anyone running their front bar on nearly full stiff or full stiff?
10-16-2012, 02:20 PM
#16
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Can you give us your alignment basics again and do you have fresh tires?
- if the car is loose on entry and exit, it will work for autocross but not for most road coarses
- loose on entry is usually a rear steering problem (rear toe, non working LSD, shot rear tires, way f'ing too much rear bar)
- you can compensate for this by fixing the front but you should re-check rear-toe, LSD and you should have good tires before you 'fix' the problem by moving the front bar
- since you have a non-small issue, I would put the front bar to full stiff to see if 'works' for you after you check the rear setup
- do you have a printout for a recent alignment showing your rear toe?
- are you running stock rear toe arms?
- are you running after market solid rear toe arms that may have developed play in them (this is known to happen)?
- does your car rear end wiggle under braking? (indication of LSD not functioning)
- if the car is loose on entry and exit, it will work for autocross but not for most road coarses
- loose on entry is usually a rear steering problem (rear toe, non working LSD, shot rear tires, way f'ing too much rear bar)
- you can compensate for this by fixing the front but you should re-check rear-toe, LSD and you should have good tires before you 'fix' the problem by moving the front bar
- since you have a non-small issue, I would put the front bar to full stiff to see if 'works' for you after you check the rear setup
- do you have a printout for a recent alignment showing your rear toe?
- are you running stock rear toe arms?
- are you running after market solid rear toe arms that may have developed play in them (this is known to happen)?
- does your car rear end wiggle under braking? (indication of LSD not functioning)
- Tyres are Supersports with 5-6mm tread left.
- Car has no LSD its a C2S remember
I shall try stiffening front bar, if that fails I shall try to source a Gen1 GT3 rear bar and set that to full stiff as am I right in thinking a gen1 GT3 bar set to full stiff is still softer than the GT2 bar on softest?
10-16-2012, 03:54 PM
#17
Now it makes more sense.
Without an LSD
- it appears the GT2 bar is too much rear sway (you don't have the LSD holding the car behind you on entry while trail braking)
- you can try full stiff on the GT3 front bar as an offset - may only work on fixing loose entry, may work on exit (I doubt it - I think you may just get less grip everywhere during track out - it will apppear to work, and it will, but it won't if you know what I mean)
- if that doesn't work, find the OE mk1 gt3 rear bar - and try full soft - and then go from there
If you are running OE C2S shocks and springs
- the softer front springs are compounding your entry rotation issues as you are unloading the rears even more than a gt 'sprung' car - i.e. you may need an even stiffer front sway (these are band aids but they can work) - GMG sells an even stiffer front sway should you care
good luck - everything is doable
Without an LSD
- it appears the GT2 bar is too much rear sway (you don't have the LSD holding the car behind you on entry while trail braking)
- you can try full stiff on the GT3 front bar as an offset - may only work on fixing loose entry, may work on exit (I doubt it - I think you may just get less grip everywhere during track out - it will apppear to work, and it will, but it won't if you know what I mean)
- if that doesn't work, find the OE mk1 gt3 rear bar - and try full soft - and then go from there
If you are running OE C2S shocks and springs
- the softer front springs are compounding your entry rotation issues as you are unloading the rears even more than a gt 'sprung' car - i.e. you may need an even stiffer front sway (these are band aids but they can work) - GMG sells an even stiffer front sway should you care
good luck - everything is doable
10-16-2012, 04:53 PM
#18
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Now it makes more sense.
Without an LSD
- it appears the GT2 bar is too much rear sway (you don't have the LSD holding the car behind you on entry while trail braking)
- you can try full stiff on the GT3 front bar as an offset - may only work on fixing loose entry, may work on exit (I doubt it - I think you may just get less grip everywhere during track out - it will apppear to work, and it will, but it won't if you know what I mean)
- if that doesn't work, find the OE mk1 gt3 rear bar - and try full soft - and then go from there
If you are running OE C2S shocks and springs
- the softer front springs are compounding your entry rotation issues as you are unloading the rears even more than a gt 'sprung' car - i.e. you may need an even stiffer front sway (these are band aids but they can work) - GMG sells an even stiffer front sway should you care
good luck - everything is doable
Without an LSD
- it appears the GT2 bar is too much rear sway (you don't have the LSD holding the car behind you on entry while trail braking)
- you can try full stiff on the GT3 front bar as an offset - may only work on fixing loose entry, may work on exit (I doubt it - I think you may just get less grip everywhere during track out - it will apppear to work, and it will, but it won't if you know what I mean)
- if that doesn't work, find the OE mk1 gt3 rear bar - and try full soft - and then go from there
If you are running OE C2S shocks and springs
- the softer front springs are compounding your entry rotation issues as you are unloading the rears even more than a gt 'sprung' car - i.e. you may need an even stiffer front sway (these are band aids but they can work) - GMG sells an even stiffer front sway should you care
good luck - everything is doable
Is the OE mk1 GT3 bar stiffer than a stock C2S bar, what about the C4S bar?
10-16-2012, 05:25 PM
#19
when you increase the amount of bar you throw at the problem (as a huge generalization) you are taking away grip at that end of the car - i.e. the problem you have in the rear - you have too much bar your car is loose - i.e. it needs more grip
if you take the approach of decreasing the front grip (more front bar) so that the front is more insinq with your loose rear, then to get a car you are comfortable with you are getting there by robbing the front of it's mechanical grip - make sense?
thus, a better approach would be to see if you can gain grip in the rear to fix your problem as the car will be faster if you can fix the problem by adding grip not losing front grip
i have no idea about the c2s and c4s bars - logic would most likely mean they are less stiff - your dealer can give you the thickness measurements (sway bar physics uses ^4 (4th power exponent) to determine twisting stiffness)
- for example (and keeping this very simple), a 20mm bar has stiffness of 20^4 = 160,000 stiffness units and a 24mm bar has a stiffness of 24^4 = 331,776 stiffness units - so it is 107% stiffer
- what is missing in these calcs are bars that are adjustable and have the ability to decrease and increase the lever point on the bar - but lets not worry about that now
- I think the OE mk1 bar on the soft or middle setting is most likely what you need
- I believe I have this bar if I can find it and would be happy to ship it
- that said, they are not that expensive, and there has to be someone closer to you that has one or just get a new one from the dealer with new bushings to go with it
if you take the approach of decreasing the front grip (more front bar) so that the front is more insinq with your loose rear, then to get a car you are comfortable with you are getting there by robbing the front of it's mechanical grip - make sense?
thus, a better approach would be to see if you can gain grip in the rear to fix your problem as the car will be faster if you can fix the problem by adding grip not losing front grip
i have no idea about the c2s and c4s bars - logic would most likely mean they are less stiff - your dealer can give you the thickness measurements (sway bar physics uses ^4 (4th power exponent) to determine twisting stiffness)
- for example (and keeping this very simple), a 20mm bar has stiffness of 20^4 = 160,000 stiffness units and a 24mm bar has a stiffness of 24^4 = 331,776 stiffness units - so it is 107% stiffer
- what is missing in these calcs are bars that are adjustable and have the ability to decrease and increase the lever point on the bar - but lets not worry about that now
- I think the OE mk1 bar on the soft or middle setting is most likely what you need
- I believe I have this bar if I can find it and would be happy to ship it
- that said, they are not that expensive, and there has to be someone closer to you that has one or just get a new one from the dealer with new bushings to go with it
10-17-2012, 02:45 PM
#20
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Of course I shall pay for it as I really need the mk1 bar as I think your right the GT2 bar is to stiff for a Carrera even on softest and as such its better to put less bar in the rear then reducing overall grip by stiffening the front bar.
My front bar is a GT3 bar but my front end has more grip for sure than its ever had, turn is is superb as is grip and feel.
10-17-2012, 03:17 PM
#21
I'll have a look.
I just moved and I pretty sure I have it.
Give me a few days.
send me an email at mail@pauloneil.com
I just moved and I pretty sure I have it.
Give me a few days.
send me an email at mail@pauloneil.com
10-17-2012, 05:40 PM
#22
Race Director
Sort of Different car than yours but I am running middle front and stiff rear.
10-17-2012, 11:47 PM
#24
Race Director
Gibbo actually I didn't know you had a C2S so yeah our cars are very similar. I have bars from Orbit Racing which is a custom rear bar and I believe a gt3 front. You'd have to ask Eddie here on these forums or call Roger at Orbit Racing.
10-18-2012, 09:51 AM
#26
Race Director
Gibbo, here are my sway bar specs...not sure how they measure to GMG or GT3 or 2 bars...I'd love to know myself. I had to have Orbit custom make the rear bar due to the wider rear crossmember for PDK. I was looking just to tame the body lean since my stock non-adjustable coilovers are very soft.
Here are the sway bar settings:
Front Stock 283 lbs/in non-adjustable
Front 3 Hole Adjustable:
Position 1: 235 lbs/in (17% softer)
Position 2: 296 lbs/in (5% stiffer)
Position 3: 385 lbs/in (36% stiffer)
Rear Stock 145 lbs/in non adjustable
Orbit Rear 3 hole Adjustable:
Position 1: 180lbs/in (25% stiffer)
Position 2: 240 lbs/in (65% stiffer)
Position 3: 385 lbs/in (135% stiffer)
Here are the sway bar settings:
Front Stock 283 lbs/in non-adjustable
Front 3 Hole Adjustable:
Position 1: 235 lbs/in (17% softer)
Position 2: 296 lbs/in (5% stiffer)
Position 3: 385 lbs/in (36% stiffer)
Rear Stock 145 lbs/in non adjustable
Orbit Rear 3 hole Adjustable:
Position 1: 180lbs/in (25% stiffer)
Position 2: 240 lbs/in (65% stiffer)
Position 3: 385 lbs/in (135% stiffer)
10-18-2012, 02:45 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
I remember (for a lark) driving Bedford Autodrome in the dry in my '99 CS GT3 with the front full soft and the rear full stiff ... what a handfull! I felt like the car was missing hubcups in order for them to fly off and roll into the distance!
11-18-2012, 03:45 PM
#28
Race Director
Gibbo, what did you end up doing?
