991 GT3 driving around San Francisco today
10-05-2012, 09:43 PM
#61
Racer
A friend of mine just ran into the whole Porsche AG development team on his way to Vegas.
Saw a 918, GT3, C4s...and a tractor trailer with a satellite dish on top. Apparently the data is downloaded back to Germany every day. The engineers could not believe he had a boxster spec car, they were all over it.....they had never seen anything like it. The 991 gt3 was having some engine temperature issues which they were looking in to......the head engineer of the 918 hybrid team was there.
Saw a 918, GT3, C4s...and a tractor trailer with a satellite dish on top. Apparently the data is downloaded back to Germany every day. The engineers could not believe he had a boxster spec car, they were all over it.....they had never seen anything like it. The 991 gt3 was having some engine temperature issues which they were looking in to......the head engineer of the 918 hybrid team was there.
10-05-2012, 10:19 PM
#63
Race Director
A friend of mine just ran into the whole Porsche AG development team on his way to Vegas. Saw a 918, GT3, C4s...and a tractor trailer with a satellite dish on top. Apparently the data is downloaded back to Germany every day. The engineers could not believe he had a boxster spec car, they were all over it.....they had never seen anything like it. The 991 gt3 was having some engine temperature issues which they were looking in to......the head engineer of the 918 hybrid team was there.
10-06-2012, 12:02 AM
#66
+1 on the first point, and an enjoyable art form that PDK cannot replace for those who appreciate/enjoy it. For those who don't, PDK is a no-brainer.
One of the best parts of living in SF for ten years was learning to adapt heel-toe technique to use on those steep uphill starts, and eventually all uphill starts. You've got the brake with the left side of your right foot, and roll over the gas with the right side of your right foot as you feel the clutch take up. Result: seamless getaways without having to use a hand on the e-brake and with NO excessive clutch slip. Even in a C-GT. Made driving around SF a cinch and a little more fun in a manual, and it still does whenever I am in the city.
I respect PDK, but two years with it in a Cayman S only served to convince me that I am a manual guy when it comes to road cars, through and through. The day Porsche stops building the models I like with a manual transmission is the day my attention will focus on its previous offerings. Feel free to call me a luddite, but I've tried to come over to the new side and don't care for it. For me.
Now, if it's about lap times or autocross times, I'll take PDK — because its performance advantage outweighs its weight penalty, no matter which manual you choose to stack it up against. On-power shifts, added concentration on other aspects of driving, etc. all add up to an unfair advantage that any competitor would be crazy not to want...
pete
One of the best parts of living in SF for ten years was learning to adapt heel-toe technique to use on those steep uphill starts, and eventually all uphill starts. You've got the brake with the left side of your right foot, and roll over the gas with the right side of your right foot as you feel the clutch take up. Result: seamless getaways without having to use a hand on the e-brake and with NO excessive clutch slip. Even in a C-GT. Made driving around SF a cinch and a little more fun in a manual, and it still does whenever I am in the city.
I respect PDK, but two years with it in a Cayman S only served to convince me that I am a manual guy when it comes to road cars, through and through. The day Porsche stops building the models I like with a manual transmission is the day my attention will focus on its previous offerings. Feel free to call me a luddite, but I've tried to come over to the new side and don't care for it. For me.
Now, if it's about lap times or autocross times, I'll take PDK — because its performance advantage outweighs its weight penalty, no matter which manual you choose to stack it up against. On-power shifts, added concentration on other aspects of driving, etc. all add up to an unfair advantage that any competitor would be crazy not to want...
pete
For pleasure cruising......Manual Transmission FTW
10-06-2012, 12:16 AM
#67
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
The weight diff between the original PDK box and the 6 speed was 66 pounds. Given your claim of a 120-130 lb penalty, would a lightweight clutch and flywheel really save 45-55 pounds, not to mention the issues with street use? Besides the latest 991 PDK box is several pounds lighter than the original and I've read that the new one destined for the GT3 will be lighter still with even faster shifting. The weight penalty is getting smaller and the performance advantage bigger.....
The gap of the new generation 7speed manual vs pdk is 66 lbs not even including the clutches. First generation was much heavier if you include all of the parts. Leave it to Porsche to sandbag the weight.
Take out Porsche's bean counters money savings using as many of the same parts as possible by removing the 7th gear in the manual and even in the same box you have a BIG discrepancy. And this is with a STOCK clutch.
There is easily 120 lbs of savings in a lightened manual clutch without a mock PDK gearbox.
Not only that, the PDK pundits always seem to never have and answer for the fact that when Porsche tested the cars on the ring they got the SAME TIME WITH THE MANUAL.
It wasn't until they put sport tires (I.E. sport cups) on the pdk that they could claim a gap. And that's a whole bunch of shifts.
I'm still waiting for someone to acknowledge the facts instead of blind assumptions based on shifting speeds. Simple premise, learn to drive, go as fast.
10-06-2012, 12:21 AM
#68
Race Director
I respectfully disagree. On faster, more open courses there are often times when a brief period in 3rd gear would be advantagous, but the tradeoff in time lost on the subsequent 3-2 downshift makes it a questionable choice. Also, in really slow corners being able to exit in 1st gear is sometimes a benefit, but downshifting with a MT into first is not something people normally try, with good reason. With PDK, both of these maneuvers are easy.
In Sport + Auto mode, PDK is spectacularly adaptive and efficient. I've been autocrossing since 1973, and there's no question in my mind that PDK is a plus.
In Sport + Auto mode, PDK is spectacularly adaptive and efficient. I've been autocrossing since 1973, and there's no question in my mind that PDK is a plus.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 10-06-2012 at 12:38 AM.
10-06-2012, 12:24 AM
#69
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Euhh... I don't think so. 
The Cup car sequential gear box is such an advantage compared to the 996 Cup with old school tranny. I can't see a paddle shifting race car at disadvantage to a manual. Don't get me wrong: I love manual shifting but this has nothing to do with lap times.
The Cup car sequential gear box is such an advantage compared to the 996 Cup with old school tranny. I can't see a paddle shifting race car at disadvantage to a manual. Don't get me wrong: I love manual shifting but this has nothing to do with lap times.
And still lap times are only a couple of seconds apart from early 997 Cup to late 996 Cups.
Not only that, but a 7 Cup sequential has nothing to do with a PDK. There is only one clutch, and there is little to no weight penalty. So even if you could even out all of the other advantages of a 7 Cup, it still doesn't have big weight penalty accompanying it.
10-06-2012, 12:29 AM
#70
Race Director
According to Porsche specs the difference in curb weight between a base 7 speed manual 991 and a base PDK equipped 991 is 55lbs. Similarly, for my '09 model year the delta between the 6 speed and PDK was 66 lbs. The only difference in both cases is the transmission type. Where does your data come from?
10-06-2012, 01:10 AM
#71
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
According to Porsche specs the difference in curb weight between a base 7 speed manual 991 and a base PDK equipped 991 is 55lbs. Similarly, for my '09 model year the delta between the 6 speed and PDK was 66 lbs. The only difference in both cases is the transmission type. Where does your data come from?
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ht-thread.html
Inside line tested two similarly equipped 991's. One PDK and one Manual. The PDK car weighed 55 lbs more as tested (meaning they weighed them). The only problem is that the PDK car had PCCB and the manual car had steel brakes.
Like I said, no matter how much Porsche hypes it up, the clock hasn't lied. If there is a GT3 manual, it will be the catalyst for the truth between the two transmissions in the real world because there will be some fast drivers who will undoubtedly buy a manual and we'll see how much the PDK makes a difference.
10-06-2012, 02:38 AM
#72
Three Wheelin'
In the end it about driver skill rather than the transmissions (unless it is the same driver). I learned on the track with my C4S with PDK in sport plus mode. Now I have a GT3 as well and am having a blast learning to shift and all that. For me I enjoy the GT3 more on the track for a lot of reasons you know. The pdk is great for the stop and go and freeway (eco driving). I am lucky still to have both. The question I pose to you all is which tranny do you enjoy more?
10-06-2012, 04:01 AM
#73
Race Director
I really enjoyed driving my previous manual Porsches. I really enjoy driving my current PDK Carrera. Which have I enjoyed more? There are many aspects to enjoyment in driving so the answer is complex, it can't just be judged on one thing.
If I could justify owning 2 911's, I'd have one of each. Since I can't, looking at the overall picture, if I order a 991 GT3 I'm almost certain it will be PDK regardless of whether a MT is available. That's as close as I can come to answering your question.
If I could justify owning 2 911's, I'd have one of each. Since I can't, looking at the overall picture, if I order a 991 GT3 I'm almost certain it will be PDK regardless of whether a MT is available. That's as close as I can come to answering your question.
10-06-2012, 11:04 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
I wonder if 2019 is the year where they build the last 991.2 GT3RS 4.8...
My 4.0 will almost be paid off around that time.
It will probably be another 5 years later before the new 992 arrives with an all new CF tub..
My 4.0 will almost be paid off around that time.
It will probably be another 5 years later before the new 992 arrives with an all new CF tub..