Will 450hp be Enough for 991 GT3?
06-23-2012, 05:01 PM
#46
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Ir fuel, no one here in the USA delivers a car complete with roll bar and 6 points. You guys over in Europe have it made with options.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
Porsche's identity is changing, they are about milking the customers, selling racing history and prestige and advertising, not beating the competition TODAY. It's sad and disappointing and PDK is a bandaid.
The 911 as we knew it (purist and enthusiast magnet, racing icon and champion) may very well be done. Porsche can use the declining 911 to fuel sales of the 960. The Ferrari 458 may very well have killed the 911 as Porsche's flagship. We will know within a year of the 991 cup and RSR touching down.
06-23-2012, 05:05 PM
#47
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Your're right, TORQUE wins races, Porsche had a leg up with torque multiplication, and top end speed. But for right now, Porsche is getting mauled. Nothing that applies to the 356 will get the 997 ahead of the 458 and if the 991 isn't competitive it will be a 187 for the 911.
06-23-2012, 05:19 PM
#48
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Two front radiators located behind the front bumpers. The neat pieces are the oil and water pump driven by the engine, no belts. There is a heat exchanger at the top of the engine, a bulky unit, it cools down engine oil and coolant as well. The lower side openings push air through the engine for cooling, in the Scuderia (n/a in F430) the openings are enlarged and they serve an extra purpose in addition to extra cooling, the inside of the rear diffuser is used as a spoiler, by adding new open grills on top of the diffuser, so the diffuser has two duties: sucking the car to the ground as a diffuser, and pushing the car down as a internal spoiler.
End results, the engine runs very cold compared to a GT3, a good 30 degrees F colder on oil, and 20 degrees on coolant.
06-23-2012, 08:07 PM
#49
Race seats are cheap, and just recently (2010) Porsche shipped the GT3 with decent seats, everything prior to 2010 needed seats replaced.
Vettes have a multitude of seats available to replace the stock crappy seats. Vettes have a massive aftermarket support, including full aero kits, full brake systems, conversion to full coillovers replacing the leaf springs, and powerkits of all flavors. A cheap built Z06 track car humiliates all flavors of GT3, and gets close to GT3 Cup territory while being street legal.
In 1999 the Porsche GT3 was vastly superior to all Vettes/Vipers/Fiat/Lambos/Audis, 5 years later (2004) there were attempts by other brands to compete (Gallardo, 360 Stradale, C5 Z06), 10 years later (2009), all the competitors have caught up or exceeded Porsche performance, and Porsche competitors keep working hard on getting better, while Porsche's focus is on selling more cars and sharing parts across the entire range.
Now we have new brands entering this market segment: McLaren, Ford (2 track worthy cars), Chevy (3 track worthy cars), Nissan. Lap Times and Track performance has become a standard on performance testing by most car magazines, and car manufacturers are responding, so the GT3 is no longer alone, and it is no longer the King.
Now we have new brands entering this market segment: McLaren, Ford (2 track worthy cars), Chevy (3 track worthy cars), Nissan. Lap Times and Track performance has become a standard on performance testing by most car magazines, and car manufacturers are responding, so the GT3 is no longer alone, and it is no longer the King.
Maybe the US market is different, but there is more than just the US market.
130.000 euros gives me a new 997.2 GT3 with clubsport package. All I need to do to get going is replace brake pads, brake fluid and get a track alignment done. Service cost is 700 euro for 20.000km and 1600 euro at 40.000. If doing a lot of trackdays just change the oil a bit more often. 19" tyres do not come cheap, but I can fit 18 if I want to and I sure do not need to pay big $$$ for 20" ones on this car. Moreover if something breaks I am covered through Porsche warranty (and trust me, I am, they already replaced stuff on my car, including an entire engine)
What alternative have I got in Europe with a similar budget, taking running costs into account? The Nissan GT-R is cheaper, true, until you start (ab)using it. Maintenance prices are ridiculous, spare parts are horribly expensive, tyres cost a fortune. I know several people that track(ed) a GT-R. Oh and it overheats after 5 laps, that is if the brakes haven't started fading before --> mods needed (Alcon brakes + extra coolers on the car). Laptimes compared to a GT3 are really dependent of the track. Nordschleife GT-R is king, Spa Francorchamps is a different story.
06-23-2012, 08:08 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
06-23-2012, 08:35 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
The cooling system is one of the bright and great engineered systems in the Scuderia.
Two front radiators located behind the front bumpers. The neat pieces are the oil and water pump driven by the engine, no belts. There is a heat exchanger at the top of the engine, a bulky unit, it cools down engine oil and coolant as well. The lower side openings push air through the engine for cooling, in the Scuderia (n/a in F430) the openings are enlarged and they serve an extra purpose in addition to extra cooling, the inside of the rear diffuser is used as a spoiler, by adding new open grills on top of the diffuser, so the diffuser has two duties: sucking the car to the ground as a diffuser, and pushing the car down as a internal spoiler.
End results, the engine runs very cold compared to a GT3, a good 30 degrees F colder on oil, and 20 degrees on coolant.
Two front radiators located behind the front bumpers. The neat pieces are the oil and water pump driven by the engine, no belts. There is a heat exchanger at the top of the engine, a bulky unit, it cools down engine oil and coolant as well. The lower side openings push air through the engine for cooling, in the Scuderia (n/a in F430) the openings are enlarged and they serve an extra purpose in addition to extra cooling, the inside of the rear diffuser is used as a spoiler, by adding new open grills on top of the diffuser, so the diffuser has two duties: sucking the car to the ground as a diffuser, and pushing the car down as a internal spoiler.
End results, the engine runs very cold compared to a GT3, a good 30 degrees F colder on oil, and 20 degrees on coolant.
06-23-2012, 09:42 PM
#52
Race Director
Last month's article on the Sebring race in Panorama referred to Porsche working on the 991 replacement for the RSR. At a recent Racers Group tech session for PCA that I attended Kevin Buckler also talked about a 991 replacement. The 960 is several years out, assuming it actually gets built......
06-23-2012, 09:59 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
997 RSR is not the only car using a restrictor, all the cars in FIA-GT and ALMS GT use a restrictor.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
I guarantee they will sell more as previous Porsche customers choose the GT3 over standard Carrera and Carrera S (which will in turn attract new non-Porsche faithful to the brand).
06-23-2012, 10:05 PM
#54
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
way better protected, the radiators are not exposed like the GT3, there is a plastic air scoop in between the radiators and the bumper that avoids direct exposure. The radiator are mounted on a 45 degrees angle, rather than straight, and there are strong aluminum grills on the bumper.
06-23-2012, 11:08 PM
#55
Race Director
06-23-2012, 11:50 PM
#58
Race Director
LOL!... ;-)
06-24-2012, 03:03 AM
#59
Intermediate
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Belfast
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the topic of is 450hp enough for new gt3, I personally think it will have 470hp due to fact Porsche have announced a 430hp power kit for the carrera s already. Also on Friday I was doing a trackday at the nurburgring and had the pleasure of chasing a new carrera s for 2laps and it was quicker than I expected, we where both lapping just under8 min B to G and I was very surprised at how quick this car was in a straight line (pdk car) I remember thinking during the first lap if this is the standard carrera s the gt3 is gonna be mega fast!!!
06-24-2012, 03:21 AM
#60
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
gotta figure the GT3 will have 465-475hp- I doubt the "normal" GT3 will approach 500 as they have to leave some room for exclusivity (aka more $$) for the RS when it bows eventually.
sadly- the only thing exclusive about the 4.0L RS in three years will be the metzger engine; the new 991RS will definitely be same HP (~500), front aero bits, etc etc.
GT3 HP through the last few years:
1999: 996GT3.1 (non-us car) 361hp
2004: 996GT3.2 380hp
2007: 997GT3.1 415hp
2010: 997GT3 3.8 435hp
2010: 997 GT3 3.8 RS 450hp
my guess-
991GT3 470HP
991GT3RS 500HP
anything less and I don't see the point of people upgrading (other than those wanting to get into an optional PDK GT3)- the 3.8RS is PLENTY of car to horse around with on the track and in another 2 years will be that much cheaper.
compared to the 570-600HP range of gallardo, MP4, 458 corsa (all almost twice the price of a GT3 new) or the 600HP viper and chevy cars...the GT3 becomes a less attractive option for the TRACK ONLY crowd-
if you're going to trailer something to the track, might as well be as cheap, as fast, and as easy to find parts as possible. the strength of the GT3 over all of these aforementioned cars over the years has been durability- you really can beat the hell out of it and drive it home (as long as you don't hit anything) but if you're gonna go full race tires and trailer it...lots more options will always exist.
sadly- the only thing exclusive about the 4.0L RS in three years will be the metzger engine; the new 991RS will definitely be same HP (~500), front aero bits, etc etc.
GT3 HP through the last few years:
1999: 996GT3.1 (non-us car) 361hp
2004: 996GT3.2 380hp
2007: 997GT3.1 415hp
2010: 997GT3 3.8 435hp
2010: 997 GT3 3.8 RS 450hp
my guess-
991GT3 470HP
991GT3RS 500HP
anything less and I don't see the point of people upgrading (other than those wanting to get into an optional PDK GT3)- the 3.8RS is PLENTY of car to horse around with on the track and in another 2 years will be that much cheaper.
compared to the 570-600HP range of gallardo, MP4, 458 corsa (all almost twice the price of a GT3 new) or the 600HP viper and chevy cars...the GT3 becomes a less attractive option for the TRACK ONLY crowd-
if you're going to trailer something to the track, might as well be as cheap, as fast, and as easy to find parts as possible. the strength of the GT3 over all of these aforementioned cars over the years has been durability- you really can beat the hell out of it and drive it home (as long as you don't hit anything) but if you're gonna go full race tires and trailer it...lots more options will always exist.
