Will 450hp be Enough for 991 GT3?
06-22-2012, 11:25 PM
#31
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997 RSR is not the only car using a restrictor, all the cars in FIA-GT and ALMS GT use a restrictor.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
06-22-2012, 11:45 PM
#32
06-23-2012, 12:01 AM
#33
In my dreams of the future, there is not another 911 GT car. First comes the production run of the 918 Hybrid Spyder in late 2013, with it’s combined 770 HP. Then they release a stripped version, without the electric motors, batteries, rear-axle steering and carbon-fiber shell. It goes down to the bare bones 530 HP mid-engine, no frills level and they call it a 918 GT3. Awhile later they add some bling, HP and track goodies, and call it a 918 GT3RS.
I can feel it. The thoughts of a 918 Cup excite me.
I can feel it. The thoughts of a 918 Cup excite me.
06-23-2012, 12:07 AM
#34
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997 RSR is not the only car using a restrictor, all the cars in FIA-GT and ALMS GT use a restrictor.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
I doubt the Corvette or Viper put a significant dent in GT3 sales, they will still be very rough around the edges. There are plenty of yuppies to buy them all up.
06-23-2012, 12:39 AM
#35
[QUOTE=NJ-GT;9631548]
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
QUOTE]
Porsche needs to remain competitive to retain their image, but personally, there is more to driving a sports car than just speed. It seems more like the difference between a fast female runner and a fine woman. Give me the bounce and feel of my GT3 any day. I’ve had 3 new Corvettes in the past and agree that GM makes them better today, but I won’t have another.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
QUOTE]
Porsche needs to remain competitive to retain their image, but personally, there is more to driving a sports car than just speed. It seems more like the difference between a fast female runner and a fine woman. Give me the bounce and feel of my GT3 any day. I’ve had 3 new Corvettes in the past and agree that GM makes them better today, but I won’t have another.
06-23-2012, 12:59 AM
#36
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Official Porsche Lap time:
997.2 GT3 RS 4.0: 7:27
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 7:32
997.2 GT3 3.8: 7:40
997.1 GT3 and RS 7:43
Z06 7:22, ZR1 7:19, Viper ACR 7:12. New versions of these cars are coming, hitting the market by the time the 991 GT3 is out. GM and SRT will likely release faster and better cars, continuing to build a performance gap against the German car manufacturer they once had set as their benchmark, and these days as their back marker.
997.2 GT3 RS 4.0: 7:27
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 7:32
997.2 GT3 3.8: 7:40
997.1 GT3 and RS 7:43
Z06 7:22, ZR1 7:19, Viper ACR 7:12. New versions of these cars are coming, hitting the market by the time the 991 GT3 is out. GM and SRT will likely release faster and better cars, continuing to build a performance gap against the German car manufacturer they once had set as their benchmark, and these days as their back marker.
06-23-2012, 01:08 AM
#37
Race Director
997 RSR is not the only car using a restrictor, all the cars in FIA-GT and ALMS GT use a restrictor.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
Vettes are getting better, a 505 Hp 6 years old Z06 beats the 4.0RS at the Porsche home track by 5 seconds. The leaf spring suspension and the horrible interior are the only drawbacks, but as soon as they put a better suspension and a good quality interior, they are going to sell more cars, and Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
The 2013 Viper is coming with stability control, traction control, a vastly better interior, more power, lighter weight, better weight distribution, and before even getting to the market, the race car version is under testing. SRT is going to sell more Vipers than before, Porsche is going to sell less GT3s.
Fiat is preparing a track day version of the 458 Italia, very likely 220 lbs lighter with power in the 600 Hp range. The bugs in the transmission are being worked out with a racing program (458 Challenge). The 458 Italia is a success, best ever sales success for the brand, so the 458 Corsa is going to sell quite well.
The Camaro is already running GT3 lap times at the Nurburgring, 7:41. The new Mustang Cobra is a monster. The Nissan GTR has been improved year after year. More sales for these brands, less GT3 Porsches.
If Porsche snoozes with the GT3 and makes it a mid-pack car, they are going to lose sales.
The blind can be ok with 450 Hp in a GT3, as long as the GT3 performs well at a racetrack, but if suddenly decent driving talent starts to show up with Vettes, Vipers, Mustangs, Camaros, GTR, Fiats, Lambos, R8, and move at a faster pace at the track, GT3 owners are not going to be too happy, especially when paying top dollars for a way lesser car.
The current Z06 is almost 20 seconds faster at the Ring than a 997.2 GT3, and Chevy is already working hard on the soon to be released C7. Chevy is racing and learning a lot from racing, and their racing program is helping the street car become better.
The MP4-12C GT3 is coming. A Viper ACR will be coming.
Porsche is eventually going to become the manufacturer of the fastest track day cars ==> for PCA events.
I simply wouldn't own a Viper; the batmobile styling is a complete turn off for me regardless of it's capabilities, and it can't compare in daily use to a Porsche. Neither the Camaro or Mustang have any particular appeal either. The Corvette is an attractive and capable car but suffers in the details. If Chevy were to address those it might be an alternative to consider but that if has been hanging out there for 40 years. As to Ferrari, the 458 is 6 figures more than the base price of a GT3; they don't really play in the same ballpark and it better be more capable at the price.
I agree with your basic premise that Porsche can't afford to stand still, but as Boxster Coupe GTS pointed out earlier, I don't think they will. This consistent negativity about Porsche's direction puzzzles me, though, especially given that most of us own them and have been pretty pleased with them so far. Past results aren't a guarantee of future success, to be sure, but a positive track record (pun intended) is a good indicator. I don't think Porsche will blow it....
06-23-2012, 01:46 AM
#38
Race Director
Official Porsche Lap time:
997.2 GT3 RS 4.0: 7:27
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 7:32
997.2 GT3 3.8: 7:40
997.1 GT3 and RS 7:43
Z06 7:22, ZR1 7:19, Viper ACR 7:12. New versions of these cars are coming, hitting the market by the time the 991 GT3 is out. GM and SRT will likely release faster and better cars, continuing to build a performance gap against the German car manufacturer they once had set as their benchmark, and these days as their back marker.
997.2 GT3 RS 4.0: 7:27
997.2 GT3 RS 3.8: 7:32
997.2 GT3 3.8: 7:40
997.1 GT3 and RS 7:43
Z06 7:22, ZR1 7:19, Viper ACR 7:12. New versions of these cars are coming, hitting the market by the time the 991 GT3 is out. GM and SRT will likely release faster and better cars, continuing to build a performance gap against the German car manufacturer they once had set as their benchmark, and these days as their back marker.
06-23-2012, 11:00 AM
#39
If we compare base price (approximately), the one closest to a GT3.2 is the R8 V10, and even that one is 30.000 euros more expensive than a GT3. Lets not even start about the Lambo, Ferrari of McLaren. That is 200K+ euro territory.
And at least in your GT3 you get decent seats + belts if you want to. A friend of mine has a Z06. After some modding a very, VERY, competitive package, especially on the big tracks such as Spa Francorchamps, but the OEM seats are a disaster.
Same story for another friend of mine with his R8 V10.
Lambo LP560, same story.
Which manufacturer delivers you a car, from the factory, with bucket seats, 6-point belts + cage, for about the same pricetag as a GT3? The only one I recall is the BMW M3 GTS. But then again, I might have missed some.
06-23-2012, 11:29 AM
#40
Race Director
Ir fuel, no one here in the USA delivers a car complete with roll bar and 6 points. You guys over in Europe have it made with options.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
06-23-2012, 01:03 PM
#41
Ir fuel, no one here in the USA delivers a car complete with roll bar and 6 points. You guys over in Europe have it made with options.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
A Corvette is an awesome car, fast, reliable, good looking and for just a couple grand those crappy stock vette seats can be replaced and then you have a car faster than a gt3 for ten of thousands less. Plus track parts seem less expensive. Corvette has a great racing heritage too, Porsche has lost its racing prowess.
06-23-2012, 01:47 PM
#42
Lets see what happens.
I do have a feeling that the gen1 991 will not be the car for me, because all the issues that come with a new engine, new gearbox, new wheelbase, etc AND NO CUP / FIA-GT3 car will surface. Once the 991 Cup is unveiled the GT3 will become interesting to me.
If the 991 is anything like some of the naysayers here are predicting, it will be a sad day. But, there are always mods...
I do have a feeling that the gen1 991 will not be the car for me, because all the issues that come with a new engine, new gearbox, new wheelbase, etc AND NO CUP / FIA-GT3 car will surface. Once the 991 Cup is unveiled the GT3 will become interesting to me.
If the 991 is anything like some of the naysayers here are predicting, it will be a sad day. But, there are always mods...
06-23-2012, 03:26 PM
#44
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I have no idea about the prices in the US, or the price of a Camaro, Viper or Mustang, but the Gallardo, R8, Italia and MP4-12C play in a whole different price category in Europe.
If we compare base price (approximately), the one closest to a GT3.2 is the R8 V10, and even that one is 30.000 euros more expensive than a GT3. Lets not even start about the Lambo, Ferrari of McLaren. That is 200K+ euro territory.
And at least in your GT3 you get decent seats + belts if you want to. A friend of mine has a Z06. After some modding a very, VERY, competitive package, especially on the big tracks such as Spa Francorchamps, but the OEM seats are a disaster.
Same story for another friend of mine with his R8 V10.
Lambo LP560, same story.
Which manufacturer delivers you a car, from the factory, with bucket seats, 6-point belts + cage, for about the same pricetag as a GT3? The only one I recall is the BMW M3 GTS. But then again, I might have missed some.
If we compare base price (approximately), the one closest to a GT3.2 is the R8 V10, and even that one is 30.000 euros more expensive than a GT3. Lets not even start about the Lambo, Ferrari of McLaren. That is 200K+ euro territory.
And at least in your GT3 you get decent seats + belts if you want to. A friend of mine has a Z06. After some modding a very, VERY, competitive package, especially on the big tracks such as Spa Francorchamps, but the OEM seats are a disaster.
Same story for another friend of mine with his R8 V10.
Lambo LP560, same story.
Which manufacturer delivers you a car, from the factory, with bucket seats, 6-point belts + cage, for about the same pricetag as a GT3? The only one I recall is the BMW M3 GTS. But then again, I might have missed some.
In this market there are plenty of low miles used cars from Fiat, Lambo, Audi, as good as new or better (through aftermarket upgrades).
GT3 RS 4.0 is more expensive than a 570/4 Superleggera, 430 Scuderia, some RS 4.0 are close to 458 Italia prices. A brand new no options MP4-12C sells for the same money as an used loaded RS 4.0.
Race seats are cheap, and just recently (2010) Porsche shipped the GT3 with decent seats, everything prior to 2010 needed seats replaced. Vettes have a multitude of seats available to replace the stock crappy seats. Vettes have a massive aftermarket support, including full aero kits, full brake systems, conversion to full coillovers replacing the leaf springs, and powerkits of all flavors. A cheap built Z06 track car humiliates all flavors of GT3, and gets close to GT3 Cup territory while being street legal.
The Viper ACR with just a set of sticky tires obliterates all GT3s, and the only nanny in the ACR is the ABS.
Seats, rollbar and harnesses can be added to any car, even a Kia can get these 3 safety items for low cost.
While Porsche snoozes, the competition is making big improvements.
In 1999 the Porsche GT3 was vastly superior to all Vettes/Vipers/Fiat/Lambos/Audis, 5 years later (2004) there were attempts by other brands to compete (Gallardo, 360 Stradale, C5 Z06), 10 years later (2009), all the competitors have caught up or exceeded Porsche performance, and Porsche competitors keep working hard on getting better, while Porsche's focus is on selling more cars and sharing parts across the entire range.
Now we have new brands entering this market segment: McLaren, Ford (2 track worthy cars), Chevy (3 track worthy cars), Nissan. Lap Times and Track performance has become a standard on performance testing by most car magazines, and car manufacturers are responding, so the GT3 is no longer alone, and it is no longer the King.
06-23-2012, 04:14 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Horsepower does not win races...since when did Porsche ever have the most horsepower in the field?? You guys need to study your Porsche history and read about the 356 Giant Killer....