Question on GT2RS vs GT2
05-24-2012, 06:23 PM
#16
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Not sure what you're smoking, no offense, but a couple of tenths is car lengths at speed. No human can "neutralize" the advantages of a Porsche transmission robot doing it for you via a dainty pull of a paddle up and down the gears let alone lap after lap after lap.
It is akin to having someone tell you to keep working on your jump shot and you will neutralize Kobe on the courts. Dreams. Hate or love it, but I think Im stating the obvious that PDK and future iterations of it will be the preferred trans choice simply because the consumers will prefer what's fastest. And all the electronic wizardry will be designed around it to make it a slam dunk.
No one enjoys being passed and no one likes throwing out excuses because it makes you look like a dweeb.
I love manuals, but the writing is on the wall.
P.S. gt2rs is special to me. Modded gt2 is a modded gt2.
It is akin to having someone tell you to keep working on your jump shot and you will neutralize Kobe on the courts. Dreams. Hate or love it, but I think Im stating the obvious that PDK and future iterations of it will be the preferred trans choice simply because the consumers will prefer what's fastest. And all the electronic wizardry will be designed around it to make it a slam dunk.
No one enjoys being passed and no one likes throwing out excuses because it makes you look like a dweeb.
I love manuals, but the writing is on the wall.P.S. gt2rs is special to me. Modded gt2 is a modded gt2.
And I'll just keep right on smoking.
05-24-2012, 07:05 PM
#17
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I was chased by a ZR1 last month at Sebring, 638Hp of big American muscle V8 with a supercharger. I have been chased by Viper ACR as well, and multitude of Aero Beetles, every time they shift gears I build a small gap, and we go through multiple shifts in one lap.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
05-24-2012, 07:35 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I was chased by a ZR1 last month at Sebring, 638Hp of big American muscle V8 with a supercharger. I have been chased by Viper ACR as well, and multitude of Aero Beetles, every time they shift gears I build a small gap, and we go through multiple shifts in one lap.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
I tend to agree with Dez that the difference on most non-Nordschleife tracks would be within the margin for data acquisition error with the same top drover on the same day.
How so????????
05-24-2012, 07:43 PM
#20
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
In this graph from Trakcar and my Fiat, you can notice the impact on manual transmission upshifting compared to a fast sequential. Notice that every time Trakcar upshifts the gap in speed between both cars grows drastically.
This is my Fiat data from my first event at Sebring (Winterfest 2011), back in the day, the car was on the stock exhaust and ECU, with 428 whp, and around 200 lbs lighter than Trakcar's 3.8 GT3 RS. Both cars with similar power.
Notice the acceleration is very similar (with slight advantage Fiat due to lighter weight), but as soon as shifting time comes, the gap grows significantly.
This is my Fiat data from my first event at Sebring (Winterfest 2011), back in the day, the car was on the stock exhaust and ECU, with 428 whp, and around 200 lbs lighter than Trakcar's 3.8 GT3 RS. Both cars with similar power.
Notice the acceleration is very similar (with slight advantage Fiat due to lighter weight), but as soon as shifting time comes, the gap grows significantly.
Last edited by NJ-GT; 08-13-2013 at 10:18 AM.
05-24-2012, 08:00 PM
#21
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
These are results from the 2012 Carrera S with the 7-speed manual tranny vs. PDK. Link to full article ==> http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...ed-manual.html
7-speed Manual/PDK
0-30 (sec.): 1.9 1.5
0-45 (sec.): 3.0 2.6
0-60 (sec.): 4.6 3.9
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec.): 4.4 3.7
0-75 (sec.): 6.3 5.5
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 12.7 @ 113.2 12.0 @ 116.5
Notice that from 30mph to 75mph (2 shifts required), the PDK car gets there in 4 seconds, while the manual transmission car does it in 4.4 secs, this negates any advantage the launch control and PDK have. The manual tranny car loses 0.2 secs per shift.
Notice that between 60mph and the end of the 1/4 mile, both cars run for 8.1 seconds, but in these 8.1 seconds, the PDK car gets to 116.5 mph while the manual transmission car gets to 113.2 mph both of them starting at 60 mph.
7-speed Manual/PDK
0-30 (sec.): 1.9 1.5
0-45 (sec.): 3.0 2.6
0-60 (sec.): 4.6 3.9
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec.): 4.4 3.7
0-75 (sec.): 6.3 5.5
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 12.7 @ 113.2 12.0 @ 116.5
Notice that from 30mph to 75mph (2 shifts required), the PDK car gets there in 4 seconds, while the manual transmission car does it in 4.4 secs, this negates any advantage the launch control and PDK have. The manual tranny car loses 0.2 secs per shift.
Notice that between 60mph and the end of the 1/4 mile, both cars run for 8.1 seconds, but in these 8.1 seconds, the PDK car gets to 116.5 mph while the manual transmission car gets to 113.2 mph both of them starting at 60 mph.
05-24-2012, 08:10 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Rad is spot on. Maybe a 997 Cup Sequential would be minimal difference. The gap grows larger on boosted cars as the PDK doesn't have the boost fall off during shift as it is so fast.
Peter
Peter
05-24-2012, 08:33 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
TrakCar is notoriously slow shifting, he even admits this frequently. 
05-24-2012, 10:01 PM
#24
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I was chased by a ZR1 last month at Sebring, 638Hp of big American muscle V8 with a supercharger. I have been chased by Viper ACR as well, and multitude of Aero Beetles, every time they shift gears I build a small gap, and we go through multiple shifts in one lap.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
My F1 tranny shifts in 60ms, the PDK has no power interruption so it shifts even faster. The standard F430 shifts in 200ms. A manual transmission car with a fast drover can't shift faster than 250ms (destructive powershift), with average drivers doing it in 400ms-500ms (0.4-0.5 secs).
So, every 5 upshift in my Scuderia, the car with a manual transmission being power shifted is off the gas by a full second. At Sebring I go through 12 upshifts at full power (I should do 14 upshifts instead), compared to a car with manual transmission and same gearing, the manual transmission car would be off the power by 2.5 secs if powershifted, and 5 seconds if normally shifted. Being off the gas on acceleration sections for 5 seconds would make the laps slower.
NASA uses a penalty for cars with a sequential transmission. Using a 2010 GT3 RS as an example (3,300 lbs with driver and low on fuel, and 425 whp), the penalty is the equivalent to removing 84 lbs from the car, or adding 11Hp, if the car is equipped with a sequential transmission. 100 lbs removed from a car in the 3,300 lbs range, drops close to 0.8 secs a lap at Sebring.
I think the difference at a track like Sebring is 0.5-0.7 secs.
But I'll give you .5-.7 at a track like Sebring over an average shifter, but certainly not a power shifter or close to it. You will not gap me on my shifts, that I can assure you.
NASA also penalizes AWD .5 (which is why I took mine out). And that's a bigger penalty than the transmission. Do you honestly think AWD is worth almost 2 seconds (on a penalty scale compared to paddle shift penalty) of RWD (if not raining)?
Truth be told, the extra 80 lbs will negate your extra straight speed once you get to the braking zone and hold you back in cornering.
A 160lb passenger is worth 1-2 cars in a roll race. Half of that is .5 to 1 car distance. Think on that, and then getting into braking and cornering with 80 extra lbs. That's worth some time.
And we haven't even equalized the gearing (with a real driver) or clutches (with a real driver) yet. No doubt the dual clutch makes it effortless, but it's also faster in auto mode, with no input from the driver. I mean who really wants that?
Porsche had to sandbag the Manual 997.2 by fitting the PDK version with sport cups to get a gap, prior to they had none by their own admission. And the 997.2 did not have equal gearing, and did not have light weight clutch = not fair comparison = fail. Sport cups are worth that much by themselves. And there are a LOT of shifts at the nurburgring.
05-24-2012, 11:16 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
05-25-2012, 04:01 AM
#29
Platinum Dealership
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
it's not just buying what you want but also what is practical, affordable, usable.
if you can afford to USE the car (on the freeway or the track) vs PARK (cars and coffee- snooze) the car, that's the real question.
I can afford to drive my CGT around town, commute, etc but would rather have a GT3 or a GT2 as a track car (although I have a SRF and mazdas for racing instead as they're infinitely more practical to race) the GT2RS and GT2 have the same price in consumables, but for the 100k or so delta you can have a lot of fun, burn up your tires and brakes all you want!
let's face it- anything over 400hp is purely bling HP on the road, unless you live in montana or the isle of man, or europe and can actually stretch the legs. I live in LA, and other than some fun canyon stuff or long road trips, I'm never gonna need 600hp from a CGT or a GT2RS. GT3, GT2 in stock power format is PLENTY OF CAR.
don't buy something you can't actually afford to use, it will just cause you anxiety attacks every time you have to park the damn thing.
if you can afford to USE the car (on the freeway or the track) vs PARK (cars and coffee- snooze) the car, that's the real question.
I can afford to drive my CGT around town, commute, etc but would rather have a GT3 or a GT2 as a track car (although I have a SRF and mazdas for racing instead as they're infinitely more practical to race) the GT2RS and GT2 have the same price in consumables, but for the 100k or so delta you can have a lot of fun, burn up your tires and brakes all you want!
let's face it- anything over 400hp is purely bling HP on the road, unless you live in montana or the isle of man, or europe and can actually stretch the legs. I live in LA, and other than some fun canyon stuff or long road trips, I'm never gonna need 600hp from a CGT or a GT2RS. GT3, GT2 in stock power format is PLENTY OF CAR.
don't buy something you can't actually afford to use, it will just cause you anxiety attacks every time you have to park the damn thing.
05-25-2012, 04:11 AM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which is why I race karts (cheapest form of national road racing available) and play with cars now. A weekend of karts at Daytona is 1/10th or less the cost of cars at similar levels of competition, and the ride is way more of a rush.