Group Buy, Voltphreaks lithium battery group buy
05-23-2012, 12:30 AM
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Group Buy, Voltphreaks lithium battery group buy
Due to interest in the Voltphreaks 5.25 pound lithium-iron batteries, we have been asked about doing a group buy, so here it is. We just signed on as a RL Sponsor, and are starting a new thread for the group buy, to keep things on topic.
Ever since Porsche released an OEM lithium-iron battery, there is interest among Porsche users for this technology. This group buy is for the Voltphreaks lightweight lithium-iron batteries. They range from 5.25 pounds to 6.75 pounds, while being fully able to start the car, in addition to providing LVC protection (along with over-charge protection, etc). The battery will also last 3-5 times as long as a lead-acid battery. This group buy is for the following three models:
The VPH750 is our recommendation for Porsche's, and can be used on all standard Porsche's (lithium batteries may be incompatible with some GT2/GT3's, more info here).
If you want more power (for example, you use the car in extreme cold weather), or just want more power/capacity and don't mind slightly more weight, the VPH900 and VPR-P6 are a good choice.
One additional benefit of the VPR-P6 is that it is lighter on a performance/weight basis than the VPH batteries, and it is compatible with standard battery mounts, like these:
http://www.rennline.com/Lightweight-...nfo/EL36V3.38/
For the VPH750 and VPH900, you will have to come up with your own mount, but a standard J-hook type mount can easily be used. It is also easy to fabricate a mount if you want something more fancy, as these batteries are very light.
Comparison of the three models can be found here.
The group buy details are below. The discounts are only on the VPH750, VPH900, and VPR-P6. The group buy will close on June 15th, 2012.
1-3, 8% discount, free adapter
4-7, 14% discount, free adapter
8+, 20% discount, free adapter (20% discount level has been reached!)
To participate, send me a PM and/or post on this thread to indicate that you are in. I will update the thread with a list of participants. Once the closing date (June 15th, 2012), or 8 or more participants are reached, we will go ahead with the group buy, at which point I will email each user with instructions. If you want to purchase ahead of time, as long as it's before the closing date (June 15th), you will still get the discount, as a refund once the group buy is closed, but you still need to send me a PM and/or post on this thread to join the group buy. For participants of the group buy, along with the purchase of a battery, you can get one remote cable harness, and one battery tender jr, at a 20% discount also.
For purchases after the closing date (June 15th, 2012) there will be no discounts. Let me know if there are any questions. Mods, let me know if I need to change or do something differently. Thanks! - Tony
Update: The 20% discount level has been reached!
Ever since Porsche released an OEM lithium-iron battery, there is interest among Porsche users for this technology. This group buy is for the Voltphreaks lightweight lithium-iron batteries. They range from 5.25 pounds to 6.75 pounds, while being fully able to start the car, in addition to providing LVC protection (along with over-charge protection, etc). The battery will also last 3-5 times as long as a lead-acid battery. This group buy is for the following three models:
The VPH750 is our recommendation for Porsche's, and can be used on all standard Porsche's (lithium batteries may be incompatible with some GT2/GT3's, more info here).
If you want more power (for example, you use the car in extreme cold weather), or just want more power/capacity and don't mind slightly more weight, the VPH900 and VPR-P6 are a good choice.
One additional benefit of the VPR-P6 is that it is lighter on a performance/weight basis than the VPH batteries, and it is compatible with standard battery mounts, like these:
http://www.rennline.com/Lightweight-...nfo/EL36V3.38/
For the VPH750 and VPH900, you will have to come up with your own mount, but a standard J-hook type mount can easily be used. It is also easy to fabricate a mount if you want something more fancy, as these batteries are very light.
Comparison of the three models can be found here.
The group buy details are below. The discounts are only on the VPH750, VPH900, and VPR-P6. The group buy will close on June 15th, 2012.
1-3, 8% discount, free adapter
4-7, 14% discount, free adapter
8+, 20% discount, free adapter (20% discount level has been reached!)
To participate, send me a PM and/or post on this thread to indicate that you are in. I will update the thread with a list of participants. Once the closing date (June 15th, 2012), or 8 or more participants are reached, we will go ahead with the group buy, at which point I will email each user with instructions. If you want to purchase ahead of time, as long as it's before the closing date (June 15th), you will still get the discount, as a refund once the group buy is closed, but you still need to send me a PM and/or post on this thread to join the group buy. For participants of the group buy, along with the purchase of a battery, you can get one remote cable harness, and one battery tender jr, at a 20% discount also.
For purchases after the closing date (June 15th, 2012) there will be no discounts. Let me know if there are any questions. Mods, let me know if I need to change or do something differently. Thanks! - Tony
Update: The 20% discount level has been reached!
Last edited by vph_tony; 06-04-2012 at 03:13 PM.
05-23-2012, 02:02 AM
#2
Race Car
Thanks for responding so promptly Tony. Can you answer a couple questions please?
1. Are you able to ship these internationally?
2. Can the remote cable with button you sell/include to shutdown battery replicate an emergency cutout switch? Ie can it also be used to shut down battery by connecting to the external emergency loop/button?
Thanks!
Matt
1. Are you able to ship these internationally?
2. Can the remote cable with button you sell/include to shutdown battery replicate an emergency cutout switch? Ie can it also be used to shut down battery by connecting to the external emergency loop/button?
Thanks!
Matt
05-23-2012, 07:43 AM
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Hi Matt,
1. Yes
2. The remote button has a 4 second delay, and because of this, is not an FIA approved emergency cutoff switch. It was designed originally not as an emergency cutoff switch, but more so that you can turn on and off the battery when storing the car for long periods, etc. It may be approved with other organizations, though, so you may be able to use it as an emergency cutoff switch.
- Tony
1. Yes
2. The remote button has a 4 second delay, and because of this, is not an FIA approved emergency cutoff switch. It was designed originally not as an emergency cutoff switch, but more so that you can turn on and off the battery when storing the car for long periods, etc. It may be approved with other organizations, though, so you may be able to use it as an emergency cutoff switch.
- Tony
05-23-2012, 10:33 AM
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The adapter is to adapt the M6 female terminal to a standard automotive SAE top post terminal. Most lightweight racing batteries have M6 female terminals.
They require an adapter to convert the M6 female to SAE top post. Usually these are made of brass, and weigh 80-120 grams. The included adapter with the Voltphreaks battery is made of aluminum, and weighs 16 ounces (middle picture shows adapter on an aftermarket lead-acid battery, not a Voltphreaks battery):
(more info here)
They require an adapter to convert the M6 female to SAE top post. Usually these are made of brass, and weigh 80-120 grams. The included adapter with the Voltphreaks battery is made of aluminum, and weighs 16 ounces (middle picture shows adapter on an aftermarket lead-acid battery, not a Voltphreaks battery):
(more info here)
Last edited by vph_tony; 05-23-2012 at 05:50 PM.
05-23-2012, 03:25 PM
#7
Tony: I am interested. I have two questions for you:
A) Do you recommend, on a car like my '12 Spyder that is not used on a daily basis, to keep a battery tender on it when parked in my garage? I heard stories in this forum of folks with .2 RS and the then-new PAG Lithium Ion battery having issues of keeping a charge on those batteries over weeks of non-use when NOT attached to a trickle charger.
B) I have a CTek Multi US 3300 unit. Can it be safely used with your battery and at what setting? For example, the bottom one on the right with Optima-like symbol?
I will also post a reference to this Group Buy on the Rennlist 987 forum so that other Spyder / Cayman R owners are aware of this offer.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
A) Do you recommend, on a car like my '12 Spyder that is not used on a daily basis, to keep a battery tender on it when parked in my garage? I heard stories in this forum of folks with .2 RS and the then-new PAG Lithium Ion battery having issues of keeping a charge on those batteries over weeks of non-use when NOT attached to a trickle charger.
B) I have a CTek Multi US 3300 unit. Can it be safely used with your battery and at what setting? For example, the bottom one on the right with Optima-like symbol?
I will also post a reference to this Group Buy on the Rennlist 987 forum so that other Spyder / Cayman R owners are aware of this offer.
Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel
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05-23-2012, 04:26 PM
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What is the minimum voltage you must see at the battery posts on a multimeter while the car is running with the AC on for this battery to properly charge?
05-23-2012, 04:40 PM
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Hi Eduardo, answers below:
A) The Voltphreaks batteries will also lose charge, and you can connect a trickle charger (we recommend the Battery Tender Jr, it's simple and works). In general, it should last 2-4 weeks, depending on things like alarm, model, etc (VPR-P6 will last longer than VPH750, since it has more Amp-hours, for example). The Voltphreaks battery will not "die", though, you will still be able to start your car due to the LVC (video link). If you park the car 2-3 weeks, you may not even need a maintenance charger. If you park the car longer, you may need to use one if you wish to prevent the battery from entering LVC protection (this happens before the battery is about to die, saving the last bit of energy to still start your car).
B) Yes CTek's are compatible. Looking at the manual, we recommend the motorcycle or middle ("car") setting, since they charge to 14.4V (recommended charge voltage) for maintenance purposes.
deputydog95, answers below:
The minimum voltage is in the low 13's (13.2V+, etc). Do this measurement when the car is idling, since you want to measure the "low" of the car's voltage range. The only car we are aware of that may not reach this voltage level is some GT2/GT3's. If you have a GT2/GT3, that doesn't have an OEM lithium battery option, be sure to check for a possible incompatibility:
"Lithium batteries could be incompatible with some (not all) Porsche GT cars. We have heard from some customers that their GT's alternator may not maintain the right voltage to charge a lithium battery. We are not aware of any other cars that show this behavior.
Almost all car alternators maintain 14V to 14.6V to properly charge the car's battery, and this is what the Voltphreaks battery expects. Some Porsche GT's undercharge their lead-acid batteries, this is not compatible with the more efficient lithium batteries. Below 13V, a lead-acid battery will be partially charged, but a lithium battery will be barely charged. If purchasing a Voltphreaks battery for a Porsche GT2 or GT3 (or if you suspect your car's voltage may be incompatible), measure the voltage first to insure compatibility. Voltage at idle with many accessories on (headlights, fan, etc) should be no lower than the low 13's (13.2 volts, etc), and while revving, voltage should be at least near 14V. Higher is better, but voltage should not be over 14.6V. If not compatible, an option is to increase the alternator's voltage, but do so only if you know what you are doing. This likely only applies to Porsche GT's, as we have not encountered this issue with other cars including other Porsches."
- Tony
A) The Voltphreaks batteries will also lose charge, and you can connect a trickle charger (we recommend the Battery Tender Jr, it's simple and works). In general, it should last 2-4 weeks, depending on things like alarm, model, etc (VPR-P6 will last longer than VPH750, since it has more Amp-hours, for example). The Voltphreaks battery will not "die", though, you will still be able to start your car due to the LVC (video link). If you park the car 2-3 weeks, you may not even need a maintenance charger. If you park the car longer, you may need to use one if you wish to prevent the battery from entering LVC protection (this happens before the battery is about to die, saving the last bit of energy to still start your car).
B) Yes CTek's are compatible. Looking at the manual, we recommend the motorcycle or middle ("car") setting, since they charge to 14.4V (recommended charge voltage) for maintenance purposes.
deputydog95, answers below:
The minimum voltage is in the low 13's (13.2V+, etc). Do this measurement when the car is idling, since you want to measure the "low" of the car's voltage range. The only car we are aware of that may not reach this voltage level is some GT2/GT3's. If you have a GT2/GT3, that doesn't have an OEM lithium battery option, be sure to check for a possible incompatibility:
"Lithium batteries could be incompatible with some (not all) Porsche GT cars. We have heard from some customers that their GT's alternator may not maintain the right voltage to charge a lithium battery. We are not aware of any other cars that show this behavior.
Almost all car alternators maintain 14V to 14.6V to properly charge the car's battery, and this is what the Voltphreaks battery expects. Some Porsche GT's undercharge their lead-acid batteries, this is not compatible with the more efficient lithium batteries. Below 13V, a lead-acid battery will be partially charged, but a lithium battery will be barely charged. If purchasing a Voltphreaks battery for a Porsche GT2 or GT3 (or if you suspect your car's voltage may be incompatible), measure the voltage first to insure compatibility. Voltage at idle with many accessories on (headlights, fan, etc) should be no lower than the low 13's (13.2 volts, etc), and while revving, voltage should be at least near 14V. Higher is better, but voltage should not be over 14.6V. If not compatible, an option is to increase the alternator's voltage, but do so only if you know what you are doing. This likely only applies to Porsche GT's, as we have not encountered this issue with other cars including other Porsches."
- Tony
05-24-2012, 03:29 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
I'm in, though I haven't decided which model, yet.
Other than cost, is there any negative to the VPR-P6 versus the VPH750? I see that I don't have to be a talented DIY'er if I get the VPR.
Thanks!
Other than cost, is there any negative to the VPR-P6 versus the VPH750? I see that I don't have to be a talented DIY'er if I get the VPR.
Thanks!
05-24-2012, 04:39 PM
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stevecolletti, added you to the group buy. The VPR-P6 is better than the VPH750 in all regards except for two things, cost, and weight (it is slightly heavier). But, for the 10% additional weight (VPR-P6 is 5.75 pounds versus 5.25 for the VPH750), you get about 25% more power and capacity. Plus yes, it fits standard mounts. Thanks. - Tony
05-24-2012, 09:17 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Three questions:
1. Pardon my ignorance, can you please tell us the safety of these batteries? What happens in a crash? What's the fire risk associated with this type of batteries in general and VPH batteries specifically?
2. You talked about cold weather performance. I get that. What about hot performance? Some of us will use this on tracks in extreme heat (100 degrees F). Any safety/performance concerns?
3. I went through your website and saw a Rennline option for mounting the VPR battery. What are our mounting options for the cheaper VPH batteries, would you be able to help us fashion a mount? (LOL I see a groupbuy on Rennline coming!!
)
Thanks for your patient answers to everyone's questions. This is all very tempting...
1. Pardon my ignorance, can you please tell us the safety of these batteries? What happens in a crash? What's the fire risk associated with this type of batteries in general and VPH batteries specifically?
2. You talked about cold weather performance. I get that. What about hot performance? Some of us will use this on tracks in extreme heat (100 degrees F). Any safety/performance concerns?
3. I went through your website and saw a Rennline option for mounting the VPR battery. What are our mounting options for the cheaper VPH batteries, would you be able to help us fashion a mount? (LOL I see a groupbuy on Rennline coming!!
)Thanks for your patient answers to everyone's questions. This is all very tempting...
05-24-2012, 11:01 PM
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Hi CRex, thanks for the questions!
1. These are lithium-iron cells, and are safer than lithium-cobalt batteries in cell phones, laptops, etc. If abused beyond limits (ex: over-charged to 17 volts, etc), they will vent, but without flame, unlike lithium-cobalt batteries. They still have risk though. Which is why we have fault detection circuitry that monitors the battery. The battery will automatically disconnect (turn off) when over-discharged, over-charged, or a fault develops in the battery. Many of our competitors do not have fault detection circuitry that turns off the battery, and yet they are still relatively safe because lithium-iron is a robust chemistry (for example, the Porsche OEM battery does not automatically turn off, if you over-charge the battery, it will vent). Another thing to keep in mind, virtually all batteries vent if abused, if you over-charge your lead-acid battery, it will vent gas also. In a crash, the battery will behave like a dry lead-acid battery, there is always risks with any battery in a crash. If for example, the crash causes a cable to short the positive terminal to negative, it can cause the cable and then the battery to catch on fire. This will happen with a lead-acid battery too (in fact any powerful battery when shorted can cause a fire). The Voltphreaks battery I would say is safer than a "wet" lead-acid battery (not an AGM dry-cell) in a crash, because the wet lead-acid battery will spray acid all over.
2. Yes cold weather results in decreased performance, just like a lead-acid battery. The effect is more pronounced with lithium batteries than with a lead-acid battery also. For example, a lead acid battery at a cold temperature might be 30% less powerful as at room temperature, while a lithium battery will be 40% less powerful, which is why we recommend going with VPH900 or VPR-P6 and not the VPH750 if you use the battery a lot in extremely cold weather. If you go with a bigger battery, then even at reduced performance, it will be strong enough to start the car. Even in the case where the battery is too cold to start the car (should only happen with the VPH750), you would just leave headlights on, or some other load, for 30 seconds, to warm up the battery. This technique works with lithium batteries because they are so light (5-7 pounds), there is less thermal mass to heat up. With a 40 pound lead-acid battery, this technique doesn't work as well since there is so much more mass to heat up. Hot performance is where a lithium starter battery differs from a lead-acid battery. A lithium battery actually performs better in hot weather. Over 100F will be fine. There is no safety/performance concern with track temperatures, though very high temperatures will shorten the battery life somewhat. A lithium starter battery will last many times as long as a lead-acid battery, even if it is used at 120F for example, it will still last much longer than a lead-acid battery at 80F. It is only at 200F and higher that there is a risk, and that risk is the enclosure of the battery melting due to plastic softening, not of the battery itself getting damaged (except for the reduced battery life mentioned above). If you are at 200F, and plastic parts are melting, then you will have other issues besides the battery to worry about! In summary, high temperature is less of a risk with lithium starter batteries than lead-acid batteries. Lead-acid batteries dislike extremely high temperatures (normal battery mounting locations are fine), while lithium-iron batteries are ok even in the extremely high temperatures (but not abnormally high like 140F+).
3. The rennline option is only for the VPR-P6, since it is size compatible with commonly used aftermarket lead-acid battery sizes. We don't have any mounts for VPH batteries, though a generic J-hook system should work just fine, like this:
http://www.machauto.com/batteries-ac...ks-bolts-6-7/8
(J-hooks installed on Porsche: https://rennlist.com/forums/8101870-post64.html)
We don't have a custom mount unfortunately, for the VPH series. Thanks! - Tony
1. These are lithium-iron cells, and are safer than lithium-cobalt batteries in cell phones, laptops, etc. If abused beyond limits (ex: over-charged to 17 volts, etc), they will vent, but without flame, unlike lithium-cobalt batteries. They still have risk though. Which is why we have fault detection circuitry that monitors the battery. The battery will automatically disconnect (turn off) when over-discharged, over-charged, or a fault develops in the battery. Many of our competitors do not have fault detection circuitry that turns off the battery, and yet they are still relatively safe because lithium-iron is a robust chemistry (for example, the Porsche OEM battery does not automatically turn off, if you over-charge the battery, it will vent). Another thing to keep in mind, virtually all batteries vent if abused, if you over-charge your lead-acid battery, it will vent gas also. In a crash, the battery will behave like a dry lead-acid battery, there is always risks with any battery in a crash. If for example, the crash causes a cable to short the positive terminal to negative, it can cause the cable and then the battery to catch on fire. This will happen with a lead-acid battery too (in fact any powerful battery when shorted can cause a fire). The Voltphreaks battery I would say is safer than a "wet" lead-acid battery (not an AGM dry-cell) in a crash, because the wet lead-acid battery will spray acid all over.
2. Yes cold weather results in decreased performance, just like a lead-acid battery. The effect is more pronounced with lithium batteries than with a lead-acid battery also. For example, a lead acid battery at a cold temperature might be 30% less powerful as at room temperature, while a lithium battery will be 40% less powerful, which is why we recommend going with VPH900 or VPR-P6 and not the VPH750 if you use the battery a lot in extremely cold weather. If you go with a bigger battery, then even at reduced performance, it will be strong enough to start the car. Even in the case where the battery is too cold to start the car (should only happen with the VPH750), you would just leave headlights on, or some other load, for 30 seconds, to warm up the battery. This technique works with lithium batteries because they are so light (5-7 pounds), there is less thermal mass to heat up. With a 40 pound lead-acid battery, this technique doesn't work as well since there is so much more mass to heat up. Hot performance is where a lithium starter battery differs from a lead-acid battery. A lithium battery actually performs better in hot weather. Over 100F will be fine. There is no safety/performance concern with track temperatures, though very high temperatures will shorten the battery life somewhat. A lithium starter battery will last many times as long as a lead-acid battery, even if it is used at 120F for example, it will still last much longer than a lead-acid battery at 80F. It is only at 200F and higher that there is a risk, and that risk is the enclosure of the battery melting due to plastic softening, not of the battery itself getting damaged (except for the reduced battery life mentioned above). If you are at 200F, and plastic parts are melting, then you will have other issues besides the battery to worry about! In summary, high temperature is less of a risk with lithium starter batteries than lead-acid batteries. Lead-acid batteries dislike extremely high temperatures (normal battery mounting locations are fine), while lithium-iron batteries are ok even in the extremely high temperatures (but not abnormally high like 140F+).
3. The rennline option is only for the VPR-P6, since it is size compatible with commonly used aftermarket lead-acid battery sizes. We don't have any mounts for VPH batteries, though a generic J-hook system should work just fine, like this:
http://www.machauto.com/batteries-ac...ks-bolts-6-7/8
(J-hooks installed on Porsche: https://rennlist.com/forums/8101870-post64.html)
We don't have a custom mount unfortunately, for the VPH series. Thanks! - Tony
05-25-2012, 12:18 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Tony this is great stuff--I've seen reviews of your product elsewhere and they all mention your excellent service. Glad to see you're reinforcing all that I've read 
Now the more relevant question... is it true that the VPR series has "better" internal components than the VPH? I'm not a stickler for 1 pound's worth of difference frankly, and would lean towards whichever's more reliable for a car that occasionally sees street duty...
Looking into the J-hook setup now. Geez, $18 sounds much better than $135 for a battery mount!!
Now the more relevant question... is it true that the VPR series has "better" internal components than the VPH? I'm not a stickler for 1 pound's worth of difference frankly, and would lean towards whichever's more reliable for a car that occasionally sees street duty...
Looking into the J-hook setup now. Geez, $18 sounds much better than $135 for a battery mount!!