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My GT2 build over the last year

 
Old 05-22-2012, 04:34 PM
  #31  
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Top 10 Pro drivers. #3 Hugh Bates is a used car dealer in WPB. #4 Chuck Veth Club Racer and is a business man. #7 Van Cleff SCCA club racer #8 Bob Knoerzer business owner who has been tracking for less than a year. #10 Andy Hollis Retired business owner, AutoX and recent track Rat. Those are the ones I know personally and they aren't Pro's by any stretch of the imagination. Of course you will ignore these facts as they don't fit your steriotype of OLOA top 10 drivers.

+100 on co drivers they need to be somebody you can live with for 8 days under stress and strain.

Peter


Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
In my Bench Racing effort to join OLOA for next season, I have found that Top Ten overall is usually plagued by Pro level talent. Combining Pro Level talent with near 1000Hp AWD Turbo Automatic cars with ALMS Aero, makes winning practically impossible for the average Joe.

However, OLOA has plenty of categories, and one can run in a category, shoot for 1st place in class, despite of the overall results.

I know how much time I lose to a Pro at certain tracks, as in the past I had the chance to watch them driving customer GT3s when I had my GT3.

I think Top Ten is achievable by the average Joe with a good car, but Top 5 requires monster car and monster driving.

Now, I have to wait for the 2013 OLOA schedule, and develop a plan to take a 1st in some sort of class, like 1st place in the hybrid-SUV new class for 2013.
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:35 PM
  #32  
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Well...Andy Hollis is a multi-multi-time national SCCA Pro autocross champion....
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:55 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
Well...Andy Hollis is a multi-multi-time national SCCA Pro autocross champion....
Maybe so but he isn't a Pro driver and Ann Hollis co drove my 6GT3 for 3 years when I was doing National SCCA Solo. Last time I talked to Andy they weren't standing in line with Pro drives. . Ian Stewart who drove with me in 08 and 09 when we finished 2nd is also an SCCA AutoX National Champion but he isn't a Pro Driver either. Leh Keen, Hurley Haywood, Matt Murry, Randy Pobst are Pro Drivers and OLOA Lap Dogs.

Peter
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Old 05-22-2012, 04:56 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
Paul, the Ohlins 120/230 kit compresses the tenders at static load, so the car is always riding on the main.

The wheel rates in the front and rear axle are significantly different in all the 996/997/986/987, hence the split on spring rates, even more with the 996/997 due to weight distribution.

I ran over 10 different suspensions in my Fiat, in my quest for the package that gave me the best results, including stock suspension (with Titanium springs), Moton MotorSports 3-way, F430 Challenge shocks/springs, for the stock and Moton shocks, I ran a variety of spring rates, ultimately, I have been on the last suspension setup for almost a year as I found the happy place, rear springs are almost 2000#, and my tenders compress fully at rest. Car is soft on the road despite of the stiff springs, shock valving does the trick.

Thanks Rad,

That was my guess as well, but given the high rate of the tenders 60/80, and a guess of their likely length, both the fronts and the rears are probably very close but just below the sprung corner weights.

If I had to guess, from the pictures of the kit and some history of investigating this stuff, the front Tenders probably support approx 450-500# and the rears around 800#. This would then imply that the sprung corner weights are approximately 100#s more than the compressed block weight at each corner. This in my research is one of the methods used to set up a cupcar (one of many, many different ways).

Way back when I did my Bumpy Track Sebring stock suspension thread, the idea I was suggesting was to pick tenders that would give you 100#s of additional load before they went to block. An internet acquaintence, who contacted me from the UK eventually did this was his TT-RS and really likes how it works.

The other reason to chose Tenders with high block loads like in this setup is that the car will and does actually get into the uncompressed Tender range in certain track conditions and it will land a tiny bit softer in transitions.

Obviously, as we all know, Ohlin's are world class dampeners, and most of the magic / feel is in the dampeners but the spring rate / tender rate choice in this application are very interesting - especially in my opinion the tender choices.

I have additional higher rate tenders that I ordered when I did my re-valve that I may continue to experiment with - i.e. getting the block loads of the tenders to be very close to the sprung corner weighs - thus creating 'more' active tenders on slight unloads.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:00 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
Maybe so but he isn't a Pro driver and Ann Hollis co drove my 6GT3 for 3 years when I was doing National SCCA Solo. Last time I talked to Andy they weren't standing in line with Pro drives. . Ian Stewart who drove with me in 08 and 09 when we finished 2nd is also an SCCA AutoX National Champion but he isn't a Pro Driver either. Leh Keen, Hurley Haywood, Matt Murry, Randy Pobst are Pro Drivers and OLOA Lap Dogs.

Peter
Well...Andy and Erik Strelneiks and a few others get paid to autocross, via sponsorships that exceed the actual costs of campaiggning their cars nationally. So to me, they are pros because they get paid to drive, just like the others you menioned do.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:02 PM
  #36  
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Nick,

Sorry for the off topic posting. I am really looking forward to seeing your car in 2013 OLOA. You do need a Cup Car rear wing as the GT2 is still stealthy looking.

Peter
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:07 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
Well...Andy and Erik Strelneiks and a few others get paid to autocross, via sponsorships that exceed the actual costs of campaiggning their cars nationally. So to me, they are pros because they get paid to drive, just like the others you menioned do.
No they don't, they may get free tires, win a few $$ in prize money from sponsors but then again so do SCCA Club Racers, NASA TT and Race drivers etc but that does not make them Pro Drivers.

Peter
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:18 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
No they don't, they may get free tires, win a few $$ in prize money from sponsors but then again so do SCCA Club Racers, NASA TT and Race drivers etc but that does not make them Pro Drivers.

Peter
Well, then, I guess either one of them lied to me. Or you're incorrect. Can't be both.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:49 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Nick Wong View Post
Serious answer- I have no idea. Never driven an RS or 4.0. Driven by a lot of RS' at Road America though, and that was when it had an OE block and stock springs/shocks/alignment...
Turbo POWAH!!!!!

[quote=TurboS;9551457]
Originally Posted by Nick Wong View Post

GT2 FTW!

Enjoy and be safe.

Peter, you listening?

Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
In my Bench Racing effort to join OLOA for next season, I have found that Top Ten overall is usually plagued by Pro level talent. Combining Pro Level talent with near 1000Hp AWD Turbo Automatic cars with ALMS Aero, makes winning practically impossible for the average Joe.

However, OLOA has plenty of categories, and one can run in a category, shoot for 1st place in class, despite of the overall results.

I know how much time I lose to a Pro at certain tracks, as in the past I had the chance to watch them driving customer GT3s when I had my GT3.

I think Top Ten is achievable by the average Joe with a good car, but Top 5 requires monster car and monster driving.

Now, I have to wait for the 2013 OLOA schedule, and develop a plan to take a 1st in some sort of class, like 1st place in the hybrid-SUV new class for 2013.
NO!

Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
Top 10 Pro drivers. #3 Hugh Bates is a used car dealer in WPB. #4 Chuck Veth Club Racer and is a business man. #7 Van Cleff SCCA club racer #8 Bob Knoerzer business owner who has been tracking for less than a year. #10 Andy Hollis Retired business owner, AutoX and recent track Rat. Those are the ones I know personally and they aren't Pro's by any stretch of the imagination. Of course you will ignore these facts as they don't fit your steriotype of OLOA top 10 drivers.

+100 on co drivers they need to be somebody you can live with for 8 days under stress and strain.

Peter
I don't think it's pro level at all, however it's hard to gauge who's learned what track to say. Talent and preparation are two different things. I think some guys did not have the car to match their talent, and some cars did not have the talent to match their capability. All in the top 10.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:56 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
Top 10 Pro drivers. #3 Hugh Bates is a used car dealer in WPB. #4 Chuck Veth Club Racer and is a business man. #7 Van Cleff SCCA club racer #8 Bob Knoerzer business owner who has been tracking for less than a year. #10 Andy Hollis Retired business owner, AutoX and recent track Rat. Those are the ones I know personally and they aren't Pro's by any stretch of the imagination. Of course you will ignore these facts as they don't fit your steriotype of OLOA top 10 drivers.

+100 on co drivers they need to be somebody you can live with for 8 days under stress and strain.

Peter
Look deeper, 10 years of data rather than just 2012. As I said, Average Joe can make it to Top Ten, Top Five requires monster car and monster driving.

The AWD TwinTurbo auto tranny Nissan drives by itself, so even decent drivers with 700-800Hp can make it to Top Five in OLOA.

Ian is as fast as some Pros, most top level autocrossers would beat a Pro at an autocross.

I think Nick's GT2 has a clear chance for Top 5, if the axles, clutch, R&P and diff can handle the massive torque. A Nissan GTR distributes power to the 4 wheels, the GT2 only on two wheel with much more stress added to the drivetrain, I strongly prefer to see a VW at the top of OLOA than a Nissan.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:07 PM
  #41  
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Thanks for sharing! Wish more threads were like this.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
Look deeper, 10 years of data rather than just 2012. As I said, Average Joe can make it to Top Ten, Top Five requires monster car and monster driving.

The AWD TwinTurbo auto tranny Nissan drives by itself, so even decent drivers with 700-800Hp can make it to Top Five in OLOA.

Ian is as fast as some Pros, most top level autocrossers would beat a Pro at an autocross.

I think Nick's GT2 has a clear chance for Top 5, if the axles, clutch, R&P and diff can handle the massive torque. A Nissan GTR distributes power to the 4 wheels, the GT2 only on two wheel with much more stress added to the drivetrain, I strongly prefer to see a VW at the top of OLOA than a Nissan.
Drivers like Ian and Popp are the real deal, no question about that. We just have to get them all into competitive cars in the same year and then it will be on. Would have like to have seen Popp in that nasty Z06 he was supposed to drive this year see if they had anything for the GT-R with Keen in it.

AWD will have the advantage always in the one lap because of less traction on street tires. AWD has won something like 8 of the last 9 one laps with the exception being Keen in the GT2 or it would be 9 straight.

On street tires, with high hp, AWD with heavy DF is the best combination.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:46 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
Nick, this is a very impressive build, quite expensive, but worth it in every way.

This car must be running 800Hp or so, 3.8 with new VTG Turbos, and custom tuned for race gas, a monster.

Is this the same car that wanted to challenge my lousy Fiat at Sebring on street tires? I feel honored, I cannot compensate for a 300Hp deficit, no matter how I drive.

Great choice on the suspension package, a friend is running the same kit in his 997.1 GT3, and I would go with the same kit if I were driving a 997.

Are you on the stock PCCB rotors and stock pads?

Check the gearing in the GT2 RS, the 997 GT2 is geared awfully tall.

My favorite GT2, is it true it is for sale?
Rad-

Thanks for noticing! As you remember, my car is a bit stealthy... The 68mm billet housing turbos are good for about 450hp of airflow before they become inefficient, so you are close on the power guess from what you saw at Sebring. On the stock block that sort of power would bend the rods unless you limit the midrange torque like all the other US tuners, and make it drivable by making it weak. We never got to try the highest power map at Sebring in April because of the rain- we were finishing up on the installation testing of the first ECU and just started working on the second one. That weekend was the first time that car was really driven since rebuilding the block.

Yes, I am still on stok rotors and pads. Top speed and mass are relatively unchanged. The displacement increase was done more for reliability than outright power, with higher flowing VTG turbos we would get more power, the block can handle the stress quite safely. I could change the gearing, but with all that power it's probably more productive to use the long gears and spend less time shifting. After all, I was deep into 6th at Road America on the stock block, so I'm willing to bet it'll be even quicker now.

Yup, this is the car I challenged you with. Never take a knife to a gunfight!

Is it for sale... I'd like to say it's a keeper, but a man's always got a price. You looking?
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:50 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by 85Gold View Post
Nick,

Sorry for the off topic posting. I am really looking forward to seeing your car in 2013 OLOA. You do need a Cup Car rear wing as the GT2 is still stealthy looking.

Peter
Haha! Stealth is the name of the game... This GT2 is as stealthy as it can get, the only way to make it more invisible would be to swap the sheet metal for a Beetle!

Imagine if my car were like the other Champion GT2 build with yellow/black/carbon exterior... We would get tossed in jail right at the Tire Rack!
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NJ-GT View Post
Look deeper, 10 years of data rather than just 2012. As I said, Average Joe can make it to Top Ten, Top Five requires monster car and monster driving.

The AWD TwinTurbo auto tranny Nissan drives by itself, so even decent drivers with 700-800Hp can make it to Top Five in OLOA.

Ian is as fast as some Pros, most top level autocrossers would beat a Pro at an autocross.

I think Nick's GT2 has a clear chance for Top 5, if the axles, clutch, R&P and diff can handle the massive torque. A Nissan GTR distributes power to the 4 wheels, the GT2 only on two wheel with much more stress added to the drivetrain, I strongly prefer to see a VW at the top of OLOA than a Nissan.
There's a bit of truth to that statement but with caveats.

1. Drivers must know the tracks. No two ways about it, One Lap is a reconn event.
2. It must not rain. The GT-R is a game changer in this respect and history is starting to reflect this. Two more years and they will say you can't win without one. Glad I started the craze back in 2000!
3. Luck. No two ways about it.
4. Car prep and Murphy's Law. I've been there twice, and don't intend to visit there again. Intentions are all fine and good but in the end worthless with Murphy staring at you.
5. AWD is harder on drivetrain components, 2wd has traction issues. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

My theory on AX and One Lap- it helps if you are really, really good, but not as much as you think. Most of the racing is well above 70mph and that is outside the scope of a hardcore AXer. Reconn is far more important which is why one month beforehand all the crazy Lap Dogs run as many of the tracks as possible.
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