Racer opinion on GT3 handling
03-08-2012, 11:59 AM
#16
I have a very hard time believing this is a trait of .2 GT3's. All 6 and 7 GT3's that I have driven tend to get slightly light at the front if throttle is applied too aggressively, lifting the nose, whereas this effect is greatly muted on much softer street cars like the 997S. So I suspect it is this, plus perhaps some set up deficiencies, which is really at play.
Answer me this: what does this guy normally race? Is it a Miata, perhaps?
Answer me this: what does this guy normally race? Is it a Miata, perhaps?
This is the main reason these cars are a PIA to autocross but pure bliss on a big track because on the big track you can brake late and carry lots of speed in, through and out of the corner. It's a car that can take some getting used to and seat time may be needed to develop confidence in that heavy fat ***.
Also if the front tires have been pushing all over the track and are heat cycled out it won't be a fun car. It's a car that requires lots of manipulation/balancing to make it do what you want but it will do whatever it's asked to do once it's setup and has good rubber
PS You want a hard car to drive get a 70s 911 and once you learn to brake and corner well in that you'll be ready for anything LOL.
03-08-2012, 12:24 PM
#17
I agree it's probably a combo of setup and how he's driving the car. You can't accelerate toward or go in slow and accelerate out toward the apex or you'll drive off it. You must carry lots of speed in with the car flat/balanced and let the car rotate on it's own as you slowly roll into the throttle.
This is the main reason these cars are a PIA to autocross but pure bliss on a big track because on the big track you can brake late and carry lots of speed in, through and out of the corner. It's a car that can take some getting used to and seat time may be needed to develop confidence in that heavy fat ***.
Also if the front tires have been pushing all over the track and are heat cycled out it won't be a fun car. It's a car that requires lots of manipulation/balancing to make it do what you want but it will do whatever it's asked to do once it's setup and has good rubber
PS You want a hard car to drive get a 70s 911 and once you learn to brake and corner well in that you'll be ready for anything LOL.
This is the main reason these cars are a PIA to autocross but pure bliss on a big track because on the big track you can brake late and carry lots of speed in, through and out of the corner. It's a car that can take some getting used to and seat time may be needed to develop confidence in that heavy fat ***.
Also if the front tires have been pushing all over the track and are heat cycled out it won't be a fun car. It's a car that requires lots of manipulation/balancing to make it do what you want but it will do whatever it's asked to do once it's setup and has good rubber
PS You want a hard car to drive get a 70s 911 and once you learn to brake and corner well in that you'll be ready for anything LOL.
I would bet these comments basically nail what was going on + it may have also been one of expectation by the pro driver who hadn't been in a street gt3 - i.e. this is a GT3 it should feel like a racecar. I would repeat everything above but also add that even though a street gt3 is more heavily sprung than any non-gt3 911, it is still not sprung like a racecar - not even close. And that fact alone, with everything mentioned above probably explains his comments.
If you put the same pro in the same car with a setup that most here would acknowledge as a reasonably correct for the track, put on fresh tires at the correct pressures AND re-valved the shocks to 700/900 then I would guess that the pro probably had this type of 'GT3 setup' in his mind. If you look at each iteration of the gt3 (996mk1, 996mk2, 997mk1, 997mk2, 997 4.0) they have upped the spring rates - my guess is that they will continue to do so.
03-08-2012, 12:47 PM
#18
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03-08-2012, 01:10 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Without reading all the other posts about this and creating a bias by everyone else's answers, to me it sounds like this is one person's comments about the car and the way he was driving it on that track. If there was a setup issue on the car I feel like he would not have made the comments of "I was impressed however in the benign handling of the car at the track, it never surprised me and was easy to toss around." A 997 GT3 with bad setup does not inspire this kind of statement of confidence in my opinion. I don't feel this is anything wrong with the car either but mainly this persons lack of experience in the car and his driving style don't mesh with not having the weight of the engine over the front wheels.
03-08-2012, 01:27 PM
#20
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03-08-2012, 02:27 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
Without reading all the other posts about this and creating a bias by everyone else's answers, to me it sounds like this is one person's comments about the car and the way he was driving it on that track. If there was a setup issue on the car I feel like he would not have made the comments of "I was impressed however in the benign handling of the car at the track, it never surprised me and was easy to toss around." A 997 GT3 with bad setup does not inspire this kind of statement of confidence in my opinion. I don't feel this is anything wrong with the car either but mainly this persons lack of experience in the car and his driving style don't mesh with not having the weight of the engine over the front wheels.
OK, I knew if I threw out lap times everyone would immediately start comparing them and making inferences onto his ability. Trust me, most of us in the same car, same day will be slower than him. He wasn't trying for an ultimate lap time in a client's 120K car. He left lots of margin to keep things safe, plus layout reference laps that his client could reasonably aspire to.
03-08-2012, 02:55 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
Does anyone else besides me drift their grocery carts?
03-08-2012, 03:40 PM
#23
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03-08-2012, 08:11 PM
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03-08-2012, 08:27 PM
#25
I know a semi-pro driver, who has driven in some Pro SCCA events and also is a DE coach. He hasn't had a lot of seat time in 911's much less GT3's, but had the opportunity recently to coach someone in a 997.2 GT3. His comments were basically as follows:
"I had coached this same client in his 997S and was pretty impressed with the way that car handled, so when it came time to coach him in his GT3 I was expecting to be blown away by the way the GT3 handled. But when I laid down the fast "reference" laps for him I was frankly disappointed with the way the front end was unsettled. In sharp transistions I felt the front inside wheel was lifting and just couldn't get it settled. We played with roll bar settings as much as possible, but the issue remained. I was impressed however in the benign handling of the car at the track, it never surprised me and was easy to toss around. Just felt that there was more to give except for the way the front end remained unsettled."
So what do you guys think about this, for those that have lots of track time and consider yourself higher level competitive drivers, what do think of this? Is there a chance something is in need of repair in his clients car? or????
"I had coached this same client in his 997S and was pretty impressed with the way that car handled, so when it came time to coach him in his GT3 I was expecting to be blown away by the way the GT3 handled. But when I laid down the fast "reference" laps for him I was frankly disappointed with the way the front end was unsettled. In sharp transistions I felt the front inside wheel was lifting and just couldn't get it settled. We played with roll bar settings as much as possible, but the issue remained. I was impressed however in the benign handling of the car at the track, it never surprised me and was easy to toss around. Just felt that there was more to give except for the way the front end remained unsettled."
So what do you guys think about this, for those that have lots of track time and consider yourself higher level competitive drivers, what do think of this? Is there a chance something is in need of repair in his clients car? or????
03-08-2012, 08:35 PM
#26
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I was very disappointed with the handling of my GT3 when I first got it. My previous Carrera (X51 engine, ROW M030 w/GT3 control arms) had a far quicker turn-in and more neutral balance than the GT3. I went through 4 alignments to get mine setup right. Bottom line, as these cars come from the factory they are just rubbish for handing. They are setup far too conservative, basically for people who don't know how to drive a 911. There is nothing but understeer ragardless of sway bar or tire pressure settings. Just bumping up the camber doesn't fix it either. To fix it, all the center track arm mount bushings in my lower control arms are rotated to change the caster curves on all 4 corners. Turn-in is now sharp and it is dead neutral with both sway bars set in the center positions. It just sounds like he needs to get the suspension alignment setup right.
03-08-2012, 10:41 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
I was very disappointed with the handling of my GT3 when I first got it. My previous Carrera (X51 engine, ROW M030 w/GT3 control arms) had a far quicker turn-in and more neutral balance than the GT3. I went through 4 alignments to get mine setup right. Bottom line, as these cars come from the factory they are just rubbish for handing. They are setup far too conservative, basically for people who don't know how to drive a 911. There is nothing but understeer ragardless of sway bar or tire pressure settings. Just bumping up the camber doesn't fix it either. To fix it, all the center track arm mount bushings in my lower control arms are rotated to change the caster curves on all 4 corners. Turn-in is now sharp and it is dead neutral with both sway bars set in the center positions. It just sounds like he needs to get the suspension alignment setup right.
Any chance you have a setup sheet for your track alignment? Also more detail on the track arm change? Like to give clear instructions to my shop to do this before the first track day. Any chance you are in the PACNW?
03-09-2012, 12:52 AM
#29
Race Director
Interested too on caster settings GT310... Please post...thanks!
03-09-2012, 01:03 AM
#30
Nordschleife Master
A good place to start is the Roland Kussmaul alignment. It's been posted on here before.
Your friend's setup might not have been way off, but simply not optimized.
As has been said above, these cars are different due to the layout, so driver expectation and experience may affect perception. And here, more than anywhere, YMMV
Your friend's setup might not have been way off, but simply not optimized.
As has been said above, these cars are different due to the layout, so driver expectation and experience may affect perception. And here, more than anywhere, YMMV