New 4.0 Available at MSRP!
01-19-2012, 10:59 PM
#61
Regarding the above comments / considerations about the Manthey 4.3L I will just say this. Hang on for a couple months and lets see what gives.
This project has been stewing for nearly a year. Plenty of inside info has been gleaned and very specific internal custom machining details are in play.
I apologize for being vague or coy but details need to be kept close for now.
Other builds are parts, ie. A+B+C = a build. Okay that works too.
I find it hard to comprehend how Manthey can build a 4.3L engine plus exhaust for 40K. I guess maybe based on volume but of which can not be that much demand for this mod.
Heck the GMG basic 4.0L build begins at 35K and then you have about a 2 page list of a la carte goodies which add up fast.
So just a passing thought. If someone is thinking of potentially moving sometime soon on such a mod ... hang back ... watch for developments and results. Then move forward with a better differential to decide.
Tilo Koch (chief exhaust engineer) from M&M (the co. most blow off) will be here to go over header/exhaust design for the project.
Anyway we're all big boys and spend our money how we enjoy best.
Cheers and all the best,
Ranger (Sua Sponte)
This project has been stewing for nearly a year. Plenty of inside info has been gleaned and very specific internal custom machining details are in play.
I apologize for being vague or coy but details need to be kept close for now.
Other builds are parts, ie. A+B+C = a build. Okay that works too.
I find it hard to comprehend how Manthey can build a 4.3L engine plus exhaust for 40K. I guess maybe based on volume but of which can not be that much demand for this mod.
Heck the GMG basic 4.0L build begins at 35K and then you have about a 2 page list of a la carte goodies which add up fast.
So just a passing thought. If someone is thinking of potentially moving sometime soon on such a mod ... hang back ... watch for developments and results. Then move forward with a better differential to decide.
Tilo Koch (chief exhaust engineer) from M&M (the co. most blow off) will be here to go over header/exhaust design for the project.
Anyway we're all big boys and spend our money how we enjoy best.
Cheers and all the best,
Ranger (Sua Sponte)
01-20-2012, 09:55 AM
#64
01-20-2012, 10:08 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
I live in my own little fantasy world were the USD is 1eur by march 2014 when I will ship car to Germany just when warranty expires and the snow has melted of the Ring and all days are sunny and there will be no tour busses and Sabine pours me a fine mass or 2 each evening through the entire summer of 2014. Ship car back in time for WinteRfest 2015 to kick 991RS ***.
01-20-2012, 10:26 AM
#66
4.0 RS is overpriced.
4.0RS money buys a 09 Scuderia with no track time and less than 5,000 miles and a spare DFI 09 Cayman S as training wheels.
No need to change the coolant fittings, the RMS, the LSD, the monoball toe-links, the LCA bushings, the LCA bearings, the muffler in the Scuderia. Just a set of brake pads, flush the brake fluid, put some decent tires, and car is ready.
4.0 RS is overpriced. 3.8 RS is a better deal. TRAKCAR on slicks can run a 2:16.5 at Sebring.
4.0RS money buys a 09 Scuderia with no track time and less than 5,000 miles and a spare DFI 09 Cayman S as training wheels.
No need to change the coolant fittings, the RMS, the LSD, the monoball toe-links, the LCA bushings, the LCA bearings, the muffler in the Scuderia. Just a set of brake pads, flush the brake fluid, put some decent tires, and car is ready.
4.0 RS is overpriced. 3.8 RS is a better deal. TRAKCAR on slicks can run a 2:16.5 at Sebring.
01-20-2012, 12:35 PM
#67
Drifting
Great thread guys and girls 
Regarding the post # 66 I have a question please:
How does a new Ferrari compare on reliability and cost of ownership vs a new Porsche track car.
I have only owned Porsches and must say I am looking forward to experiencing the 4.0 once the snow melts.
Regarding the post # 66 I have a question please:
How does a new Ferrari compare on reliability and cost of ownership vs a new Porsche track car.
I have only owned Porsches and must say I am looking forward to experiencing the 4.0 once the snow melts.
01-20-2012, 01:51 PM
#68
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Great thread guys and girls
Regarding the post # 66 I have a question please:
How does a new Ferrari compare on reliability and cost of ownership vs a new Porsche track car.
I have only owned Porsches and must say I am looking forward to experiencing the 4.0 once the snow melts.
Regarding the post # 66 I have a question please:
How does a new Ferrari compare on reliability and cost of ownership vs a new Porsche track car.
I have only owned Porsches and must say I am looking forward to experiencing the 4.0 once the snow melts.
With the same usage, I would be on new axles in a GT3/GT2/RS, at least the 2nd clutch, definitely a new LSD.
The GT3/GT2/RS use the engine in the GT3 Cup. The Scuderia uses the engine in the F430 Challenge. FIAT recommends a rebuild every 200 track hours on the challenge cars (they run on slicks), VW recommends a rebuild every 80 hours. Most F430 challenge are running in the original engine since 2005.
The axles in the Scuderia are gigantic, like F-450 axles, twice as thick as VW axles. The diff in the Scuderia is an hydraulic unit with multiple plates controlled by its unique ECU, it provides 0%-100% lock. Very strong unit.
I only have two visits to a FIAT shop, both of them for annual service. All the other visits have been for alignment, upgrades (I went to Moton 3-way, then took them out a year later), etc.
I know the cost of AeroBeetle parts, and all the Aero Beetles have put way so much more $$$ on mods/maintenance.
My car is on the original rotors, haven't replaced rotors yet.
For track use, it is better to switch to steel rotors. A few kits are available starting at $5k with rotors for 4 corners and pads. I have been running CCB, but I'm about to change them.
Headers are recommended to be replaced with Capristo units and the insulation jackets. Most if not all the F430/360 that have caught fire is due to oil leaks over the red hot stock headers, they get way red hot just with highway driving. The Capristo units run hot as well, but the jacket insulates them from any leak. This is what I have.
Engine runs very cold contrary to a GT3, it might explain the longevity, 210 F degrees oil temperature is as high as I have seen at a track day, the car has great engine and tranny cooling (air/oil/coolant heat exchanger, 3 radiators and 4 air flow inputs just for the engine).
It needs brake ducts, I'm researching on this as there is a nice kit offered standard in the 599-GTO and it fits the Scuderia, cost around $800.
The F430 is not as reliable, many documented reliability issues. The F458 Italia still has issues with the DCT (FIAT-PDK) and it needs steel rotors as well for low operating costs. If you track 6 days a year, leave the F458 or Scuderia on the stock rotors.
Scuderias are in between $160k and $210k right now, their prices have come up a little bit in the last 12 months. The demand for them keeps getting stronger. There are close to 600 of them in U.S., 250 2008 (confirmed), close to 350 (rumored, based on a registry I keep).
GT3 is more relaxed to drive, the Scuderia is more furious. GT3 is laggy on the controls except the steering, the Scuderia is very sensitive to inputs.
Perfect track day cars: Scuderia and 4.0RS
01-20-2012, 01:54 PM
#69
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This is going to turn into a red vs black/gold debate ~ "hey Capristo, Gotta watch that oil leak ovea that exhaust eh, Or forget about it"
I cant wait to see whats in store with the RANGER.
I cant wait to see whats in store with the RANGER.
01-20-2012, 02:21 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
After 21 track days, 12,000 miles, numerous drag races, additional 10,000+ miles riding on a trailer, numerous autocrosses, an off-track at Daytona, an off-track at El Toro Airfield, the Scuderia has proven to be the most reliable car I have owned, and the cheapest to operate. Insurance is affordable too.
With the same usage, I would be on new axles in a GT3/GT2/RS, at least the 2nd clutch, definitely a new LSD.
The GT3/GT2/RS use the engine in the GT3 Cup. The Scuderia uses the engine in the F430 Challenge. FIAT recommends a rebuild every 200 track hours on the challenge cars (they run on slicks), VW recommends a rebuild every 80 hours. Most F430 challenge are running in the original engine since 2005.
The axles in the Scuderia are gigantic, like F-450 axles, twice as thick as VW axles. The diff in the Scuderia is an hydraulic unit with multiple plates controlled by its unique ECU, it provides 0%-100% lock. Very strong unit.
I only have two visits to a FIAT shop, both of them for annual service. All the other visits have been for alignment, upgrades (I went to Moton 3-way, then took them out a year later), etc.
I know the cost of AeroBeetle parts, and all the Aero Beetles have put way so much more $$$ on mods/maintenance.
My car is on the original rotors, haven't replaced rotors yet.
For track use, it is better to switch to steel rotors. A few kits are available starting at $5k with rotors for 4 corners and pads. I have been running CCB, but I'm about to change them.
Headers are recommended to be replaced with Capristo units and the insulation jackets. Most if not all the F430/360 that have caught fire is due to oil leaks over the red hot stock headers, they get way red hot just with highway driving. The Capristo units run hot as well, but the jacket insulates them from any leak. This is what I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlfq8...yer_detailpage
Engine runs very cold contrary to a GT3, it might explain the longevity, 210 F degrees oil temperature is as high as I have seen at a track day, the car has great engine and tranny cooling (air/oil/coolant heat exchanger, 3 radiators and 4 air flow inputs just for the engine).
It needs brake ducts, I'm researching on this as there is a nice kit offered standard in the 599-GTO and it fits the Scuderia, cost around $800.
The F430 is not as reliable, many documented reliability issues. The F458 Italia still has issues with the DCT (FIAT-PDK) and it needs steel rotors as well for low operating costs. If you track 6 days a year, leave the F458 or Scuderia on the stock rotors.
Scuderias are in between $160k and $210k right now, their prices have come up a little bit in the last 12 months. The demand for them keeps getting stronger. There are close to 600 of them in U.S., 250 2008 (confirmed), close to 350 (rumored, based on a registry I keep).
GT3 is more relaxed to drive, the Scuderia is more furious. GT3 is laggy on the controls except the steering, the Scuderia is very sensitive to inputs.
Perfect track day cars: Scuderia and 4.0RS
With the same usage, I would be on new axles in a GT3/GT2/RS, at least the 2nd clutch, definitely a new LSD.
The GT3/GT2/RS use the engine in the GT3 Cup. The Scuderia uses the engine in the F430 Challenge. FIAT recommends a rebuild every 200 track hours on the challenge cars (they run on slicks), VW recommends a rebuild every 80 hours. Most F430 challenge are running in the original engine since 2005.
The axles in the Scuderia are gigantic, like F-450 axles, twice as thick as VW axles. The diff in the Scuderia is an hydraulic unit with multiple plates controlled by its unique ECU, it provides 0%-100% lock. Very strong unit.
I only have two visits to a FIAT shop, both of them for annual service. All the other visits have been for alignment, upgrades (I went to Moton 3-way, then took them out a year later), etc.
I know the cost of AeroBeetle parts, and all the Aero Beetles have put way so much more $$$ on mods/maintenance.
My car is on the original rotors, haven't replaced rotors yet.
For track use, it is better to switch to steel rotors. A few kits are available starting at $5k with rotors for 4 corners and pads. I have been running CCB, but I'm about to change them.
Headers are recommended to be replaced with Capristo units and the insulation jackets. Most if not all the F430/360 that have caught fire is due to oil leaks over the red hot stock headers, they get way red hot just with highway driving. The Capristo units run hot as well, but the jacket insulates them from any leak. This is what I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlfq8...yer_detailpage
Engine runs very cold contrary to a GT3, it might explain the longevity, 210 F degrees oil temperature is as high as I have seen at a track day, the car has great engine and tranny cooling (air/oil/coolant heat exchanger, 3 radiators and 4 air flow inputs just for the engine).
It needs brake ducts, I'm researching on this as there is a nice kit offered standard in the 599-GTO and it fits the Scuderia, cost around $800.
The F430 is not as reliable, many documented reliability issues. The F458 Italia still has issues with the DCT (FIAT-PDK) and it needs steel rotors as well for low operating costs. If you track 6 days a year, leave the F458 or Scuderia on the stock rotors.
Scuderias are in between $160k and $210k right now, their prices have come up a little bit in the last 12 months. The demand for them keeps getting stronger. There are close to 600 of them in U.S., 250 2008 (confirmed), close to 350 (rumored, based on a registry I keep).
GT3 is more relaxed to drive, the Scuderia is more furious. GT3 is laggy on the controls except the steering, the Scuderia is very sensitive to inputs.
Perfect track day cars: Scuderia and 4.0RS
01-20-2012, 02:48 PM
#72
Drifting
01-20-2012, 04:06 PM
#73
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Oct 2005
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After 21 track days, 12,000 miles, numerous drag races, additional 10,000+ miles riding on a trailer, numerous autocrosses, an off-track at Daytona, an off-track at El Toro Airfield, the Scuderia has proven to be the most reliable car I have owned, and the cheapest to operate. Insurance is affordable too.
With the same usage, I would be on new axles in a GT3/GT2/RS, at least the 2nd clutch, definitely a new LSD.
The GT3/GT2/RS use the engine in the GT3 Cup. The Scuderia uses the engine in the F430 Challenge. FIAT recommends a rebuild every 200 track hours on the challenge cars (they run on slicks), VW recommends a rebuild every 80 hours. Most F430 challenge are running in the original engine since 2005.
The axles in the Scuderia are gigantic, like F-450 axles, twice as thick as VW axles. The diff in the Scuderia is an hydraulic unit with multiple plates controlled by its unique ECU, it provides 0%-100% lock. Very strong unit.
I only have two visits to a FIAT shop, both of them for annual service. All the other visits have been for alignment, upgrades (I went to Moton 3-way, then took them out a year later), etc.
I know the cost of AeroBeetle parts, and all the Aero Beetles have put way so much more $$$ on mods/maintenance.
My car is on the original rotors, haven't replaced rotors yet.
For track use, it is better to switch to steel rotors. A few kits are available starting at $5k with rotors for 4 corners and pads. I have been running CCB, but I'm about to change them.
Headers are recommended to be replaced with Capristo units and the insulation jackets. Most if not all the F430/360 that have caught fire is due to oil leaks over the red hot stock headers, they get way red hot just with highway driving. The Capristo units run hot as well, but the jacket insulates them from any leak. This is what I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlfq8...yer_detailpage
Engine runs very cold contrary to a GT3, it might explain the longevity, 210 F degrees oil temperature is as high as I have seen at a track day, the car has great engine and tranny cooling (air/oil/coolant heat exchanger, 3 radiators and 4 air flow inputs just for the engine).
It needs brake ducts, I'm researching on this as there is a nice kit offered standard in the 599-GTO and it fits the Scuderia, cost around $800.
The F430 is not as reliable, many documented reliability issues. The F458 Italia still has issues with the DCT (FIAT-PDK) and it needs steel rotors as well for low operating costs. If you track 6 days a year, leave the F458 or Scuderia on the stock rotors.
Scuderias are in between $160k and $210k right now, their prices have come up a little bit in the last 12 months. The demand for them keeps getting stronger. There are close to 600 of them in U.S., 250 2008 (confirmed), close to 350 (rumored, based on a registry I keep).
GT3 is more relaxed to drive, the Scuderia is more furious. GT3 is laggy on the controls except the steering, the Scuderia is very sensitive to inputs.
Perfect track day cars: Scuderia and 4.0RS
With the same usage, I would be on new axles in a GT3/GT2/RS, at least the 2nd clutch, definitely a new LSD.
The GT3/GT2/RS use the engine in the GT3 Cup. The Scuderia uses the engine in the F430 Challenge. FIAT recommends a rebuild every 200 track hours on the challenge cars (they run on slicks), VW recommends a rebuild every 80 hours. Most F430 challenge are running in the original engine since 2005.
The axles in the Scuderia are gigantic, like F-450 axles, twice as thick as VW axles. The diff in the Scuderia is an hydraulic unit with multiple plates controlled by its unique ECU, it provides 0%-100% lock. Very strong unit.
I only have two visits to a FIAT shop, both of them for annual service. All the other visits have been for alignment, upgrades (I went to Moton 3-way, then took them out a year later), etc.
I know the cost of AeroBeetle parts, and all the Aero Beetles have put way so much more $$$ on mods/maintenance.
My car is on the original rotors, haven't replaced rotors yet.
For track use, it is better to switch to steel rotors. A few kits are available starting at $5k with rotors for 4 corners and pads. I have been running CCB, but I'm about to change them.
Headers are recommended to be replaced with Capristo units and the insulation jackets. Most if not all the F430/360 that have caught fire is due to oil leaks over the red hot stock headers, they get way red hot just with highway driving. The Capristo units run hot as well, but the jacket insulates them from any leak. This is what I have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlfq8...yer_detailpage
Engine runs very cold contrary to a GT3, it might explain the longevity, 210 F degrees oil temperature is as high as I have seen at a track day, the car has great engine and tranny cooling (air/oil/coolant heat exchanger, 3 radiators and 4 air flow inputs just for the engine).
It needs brake ducts, I'm researching on this as there is a nice kit offered standard in the 599-GTO and it fits the Scuderia, cost around $800.
The F430 is not as reliable, many documented reliability issues. The F458 Italia still has issues with the DCT (FIAT-PDK) and it needs steel rotors as well for low operating costs. If you track 6 days a year, leave the F458 or Scuderia on the stock rotors.
Scuderias are in between $160k and $210k right now, their prices have come up a little bit in the last 12 months. The demand for them keeps getting stronger. There are close to 600 of them in U.S., 250 2008 (confirmed), close to 350 (rumored, based on a registry I keep).
GT3 is more relaxed to drive, the Scuderia is more furious. GT3 is laggy on the controls except the steering, the Scuderia is very sensitive to inputs.
Perfect track day cars: Scuderia and 4.0RS
Great post, Rad. I like the Fiat, but still bought a Porsche. I wonder if you/we had more data from other Fiat owners, if the outcome would change at all.
01-20-2012, 06:03 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
Even though some (me) post a lot of horse sh@t here, there also is a lot of good info.
I found rennlist first Porsche later. I never even sat in a Porsche when I got a ride at RR in a 07RS and I put my deposit down in April 2008 for my RS when I came home.
I found rennlist first Porsche later. I never even sat in a Porsche when I got a ride at RR in a 07RS and I put my deposit down in April 2008 for my RS when I came home.
01-20-2012, 06:20 PM
#75
Interesting stuff. I never tracked on intended to track my GT3RS I just liked driving it. I just ordered a 458 and it's not a ton more than a 4.0 (unless you go crazy with options). I guess you have to decide (if you can't have both) which one appeals. I love Porsches (I still have an 07 turbo) but for similar money I would rather have a Ferrari. The discussion about which one is cheaper to track is hilarious. Neither is cheap to track.