TC on a 997.1 GT3
11-01-2011, 09:13 AM
#1
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TC on a 997.1 GT3
To TC or not to TC.
I've looked through the forums about exactly what the TC on the 997.1 does.
When it is on, is it really on? When it is off, is it really off?
I've had numerous oversteer moments under power and through corners without the light coming on. When I drive out of my compound on interlock, I pleasantly drift the car about 10-15 degrees in 1st gear under power, no light. A year ago I aquaplaned at about 40mph (under power) and spun the car - no light.
When it does come on, it feels like ignition retardation, not brake application. The former is not a big deal, the latter I don't like.
So can anyone explain the TC on the 997.1?
I've looked through the forums about exactly what the TC on the 997.1 does.
When it is on, is it really on? When it is off, is it really off?
I've had numerous oversteer moments under power and through corners without the light coming on. When I drive out of my compound on interlock, I pleasantly drift the car about 10-15 degrees in 1st gear under power, no light. A year ago I aquaplaned at about 40mph (under power) and spun the car - no light.
When it does come on, it feels like ignition retardation, not brake application. The former is not a big deal, the latter I don't like.
So can anyone explain the TC on the 997.1?
11-01-2011, 10:05 AM
#2
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When TC is on, you can smell the brakes under duration of use as the brakes pulse their little hearts out trying to stop you from coming loose.
When TC is off, you can drift or do donuts in parking lots to your hearts content.
When TC is off, you can drift or do donuts in parking lots to your hearts content.
11-01-2011, 10:10 AM
#3
To TC or not to TC.
I've looked through the forums about exactly what the TC on the 997.1 does.
When it is on, is it really on? When it is off, is it really off?
I've had numerous oversteer moments under power and through corners without the light coming on. When I drive out of my compound on interlock, I pleasantly drift the car about 10-15 degrees in 1st gear under power, no light. A year ago I aquaplaned at about 40mph (under power) and spun the car - no light.
When it does come on, it feels like ignition retardation, not brake application. The former is not a big deal, the latter I don't like.
So can anyone explain the TC on the 997.1?
I've looked through the forums about exactly what the TC on the 997.1 does.
When it is on, is it really on? When it is off, is it really off?
I've had numerous oversteer moments under power and through corners without the light coming on. When I drive out of my compound on interlock, I pleasantly drift the car about 10-15 degrees in 1st gear under power, no light. A year ago I aquaplaned at about 40mph (under power) and spun the car - no light.
When it does come on, it feels like ignition retardation, not brake application. The former is not a big deal, the latter I don't like.
So can anyone explain the TC on the 997.1?
The other type of TC intervention on a track that requires TC to be off is if your track has a section that unloads the entire rear end when you are on throttle - such as a 'jump'. Limerock Park in Connecticut has an Uphill Corner' - if you are fast, the rear end unloads every single time - when it does, and you are on the throttle, the rear wheels start spinning and then TC activates the rear brakes to kill the spinning wheels - basically slowly melting your brake pads.
I am pretty sure, but not positive, that there is 'some', might be very minimal, rear brake intervention before you see the light. I also know it to be human nature that when the yaw angle gets large - you might be missing the light so to say it isn't coming on may not be correct to begin with.
On a 997GT3.ml1, the TC is not going to save you - so, in my opinion, this is not legal advice, on the track you may as well turn it off as it will with 100% probability not save you from spinning.
For daily driving keep it on. The reason, if you hit a really, really slippery surface, first thing in the morning when you are half alert, have cold tires and you have a large steering angle (such as turning a a light) and you are going very slowly, the TC intervention for engine cut will help you from doing a 360
- this happened to me in January in NJ 4 years ago when I had the car for less than 6 weeks - I basically didn't know the car, know the tires, had little track experience at the time - it worked - but I was doing maybe 15mph - this sounds somewhat like you leaving your compound .
11-01-2011, 11:39 AM
#4
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The 'main' reason I turn it off on the track is the engine cut part. If you have a track, like your 'compound' (a second gear corner where you are going to lose some traction and will be sliding the rear a bit 'for sure' while getting the power down on exit - the engine cut kills the launch dramatically. If you know your track, and you do this sliding launch every lap - you need to kill TC.
The other type of TC intervention on a track that requires TC to be off is if your track has a section that unloads the entire rear end when you are on throttle - such as a 'jump'. Limerock Park in Connecticut has an Uphill Corner' - if you are fast, the rear end unloads every single time - when it does, and you are on the throttle, the rear wheels start spinning and then TC activates the rear brakes to kill the spinning wheels - basically slowly melting your brake pads.
I am pretty sure, but not positive, that there is 'some', might be very minimal, rear brake intervention before you see the light. I also know it to be human nature that when the yaw angle gets large - you might be missing the light so to say it isn't coming on may not be correct to begin with.
On a 997GT3.ml1, the TC is not going to save you - so, in my opinion, this is not legal advice, on the track you may as well turn it off as it will with 100% probability not save you from spinning.
For daily driving keep it on. The reason, if you hit a really, really slippery surface, first thing in the morning when you are half alert, have cold tires and you have a large steering angle (such as turning a a light) and you are going very slowly, the TC intervention for engine cut will help you from doing a 360
- this happened to me in January in NJ 4 years ago when I had the car for less than 6 weeks - I basically didn't know the car, know the tires, had little track experience at the time - it worked - but I was doing maybe 15mph - this sounds somewhat like you leaving your compound .
The other type of TC intervention on a track that requires TC to be off is if your track has a section that unloads the entire rear end when you are on throttle - such as a 'jump'. Limerock Park in Connecticut has an Uphill Corner' - if you are fast, the rear end unloads every single time - when it does, and you are on the throttle, the rear wheels start spinning and then TC activates the rear brakes to kill the spinning wheels - basically slowly melting your brake pads.
I am pretty sure, but not positive, that there is 'some', might be very minimal, rear brake intervention before you see the light. I also know it to be human nature that when the yaw angle gets large - you might be missing the light so to say it isn't coming on may not be correct to begin with.
On a 997GT3.ml1, the TC is not going to save you - so, in my opinion, this is not legal advice, on the track you may as well turn it off as it will with 100% probability not save you from spinning.
For daily driving keep it on. The reason, if you hit a really, really slippery surface, first thing in the morning when you are half alert, have cold tires and you have a large steering angle (such as turning a a light) and you are going very slowly, the TC intervention for engine cut will help you from doing a 360
- this happened to me in January in NJ 4 years ago when I had the car for less than 6 weeks - I basically didn't know the car, know the tires, had little track experience at the time - it worked - but I was doing maybe 15mph - this sounds somewhat like you leaving your compound .
Especially the bit that TC will not save me from spinning. My flirtations with the limit of the car amount to the various twitches, compressions and general cries of surrender from the tires but am never out of control. So I may as well switch it off...
Will try it at next TD. If I put it in the wall I'm coming after you.
11-01-2011, 11:50 AM
#5
TC will absolutely save you from spinning unless you do something incredibly stupid. I was on a skid pad earlier this year and forgot to turn the TC off all the car did was push but with some real effort I could get the tail out for about 1/4 way around the circle. Turned the TC off and the back end steps out immediately and the full circle drifts can begin
If you're inexperienced driver I'd suggest leaving the TC on until you know the line and track well but otherwise it's a PIA and will come on in the 1st corner.
TC is off when it's OFF contrary to what I've heard. I drove on the skid pad for 5 minutes drifting the whole time and the rear brakes were not at all hot and there was no cut in power.
If you're inexperienced driver I'd suggest leaving the TC on until you know the line and track well but otherwise it's a PIA and will come on in the 1st corner.
TC is off when it's OFF contrary to what I've heard. I drove on the skid pad for 5 minutes drifting the whole time and the rear brakes were not at all hot and there was no cut in power.
This is good advice.
Especially the bit that TC will not save me from spinning. My flirtations with the limit of the car amount to the various twitches, compressions and general cries of surrender from the tires but am never out of control. So I may as well switch it off...
Will try it at next TD. If I put it in the wall I'm coming after you.
Especially the bit that TC will not save me from spinning. My flirtations with the limit of the car amount to the various twitches, compressions and general cries of surrender from the tires but am never out of control. So I may as well switch it off...
Will try it at next TD. If I put it in the wall I'm coming after you.
11-01-2011, 12:38 PM
#7
TC will absolutely save you from spinning unless you do something incredibly stupid. I was on a skid pad earlier this year and forgot to turn the TC off all the car did was push but with some real effort I could get the tail out for about 1/4 way around the circle. Turned the TC off and the back end steps out immediately and the full circle drifts can begin
.
.
That said, in the very specific example that you are giving, a Skid Pad, it will absolutely be constantly intervening - i.e. 1st gear (maybe 2nd), very large steering angle trying to get 20 degree slip angle to rotate the car for a skid pad - in this situation you will be lighting up the rear pads and you will be getting constant throttle cut.
Once you get into upper RPM 2nd gear, 3rd gear, 4th gear corners you are on your own to save yourself - by the time TC has intervened, if you are not already counter steering into the rotation you are going to 'spin'.
As I mentioned - for street driving, cold tires, slow brain, slow speeds, drinking coffee mornings it does work. Once you are above 50mph on a track - you are on your own.
My own experience 'spinning' the car while learning it has taught me this - as has my observations of numerous 997GT3.mk1s going 'off track'. I will say, that the tracks I generally visit / enjoy are of the higher speed type - and 'learning' a gt3, never mind learning how to drive period, taught me TC is not really there at speed.
I would now find it extremely difficult to spin a GT3 - but I equate that to Darwinism - i.e. if you survive the learning process you just would never allow yourself to now do the things you never knew you shouldn't be doing when you didn't know better. It's like playing contact ice hockey - if you are skating across the ice for more than 1 second with the puck on your stick and you are looking down - you should be ducking because you are about to be knocked unconscious - contact hockey is like driving a gt3 - non contact hockey is like driving a Turbo with SC/TC.
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11-01-2011, 01:16 PM
#9
Let me be more specific. In my track experience, TC will absolutely NOT save you from spinning a car - on a track.
That said, in the very specific example that you are giving, a Skid Pad, it will absolutely be constantly intervening - i.e. 1st gear (maybe 2nd), very large steering angle trying to get 20 degree slip angle to rotate the car for a skid pad - in this situation you will be lighting up the rear pads and you will be getting constant throttle cut.
Once you get into upper RPM 2nd gear, 3rd gear, 4th gear corners you are on your own to save yourself - by the time TC has intervened, if you are not already counter steering into the rotation you are going to 'spin'.
As I mentioned - for street driving, cold tires, slow brain, slow speeds, drinking coffee mornings it does work. Once you are above 50mph on a track - you are on your own.
My own experience 'spinning' the car while learning it has taught me this - as has my observations of numerous 997GT3.mk1s going 'off track'. I will say, that the tracks I generally visit / enjoy are of the higher speed type - and 'learning' a gt3, never mind learning how to drive period, taught me TC is not really there at speed.
I would now find it extremely difficult to spin a GT3 - but I equate that to Darwinism - i.e. if you survive the learning process you just would never allow yourself to now do the things you never knew you shouldn't be doing when you didn't know better. It's like playing contact ice hockey - if you are skating across the ice for more than 1 second with the puck on your stick and you are looking down - you should be ducking because you are about to be knocked unconscious - contact hockey is like driving a gt3 - non contact hockey is like driving a Turbo with SC/TC.
That said, in the very specific example that you are giving, a Skid Pad, it will absolutely be constantly intervening - i.e. 1st gear (maybe 2nd), very large steering angle trying to get 20 degree slip angle to rotate the car for a skid pad - in this situation you will be lighting up the rear pads and you will be getting constant throttle cut.
Once you get into upper RPM 2nd gear, 3rd gear, 4th gear corners you are on your own to save yourself - by the time TC has intervened, if you are not already counter steering into the rotation you are going to 'spin'.
As I mentioned - for street driving, cold tires, slow brain, slow speeds, drinking coffee mornings it does work. Once you are above 50mph on a track - you are on your own.
My own experience 'spinning' the car while learning it has taught me this - as has my observations of numerous 997GT3.mk1s going 'off track'. I will say, that the tracks I generally visit / enjoy are of the higher speed type - and 'learning' a gt3, never mind learning how to drive period, taught me TC is not really there at speed.
I would now find it extremely difficult to spin a GT3 - but I equate that to Darwinism - i.e. if you survive the learning process you just would never allow yourself to now do the things you never knew you shouldn't be doing when you didn't know better. It's like playing contact ice hockey - if you are skating across the ice for more than 1 second with the puck on your stick and you are looking down - you should be ducking because you are about to be knocked unconscious - contact hockey is like driving a gt3 - non contact hockey is like driving a Turbo with SC/TC.
I like the hockey analogy I played when I was a kid
Basic car control skills won't help when the back end steps out at high speeds you'll need better than avg car control skills to save it. However TC may give you that little extra bit of reaction time to keep it out of the wall or better a good instructor to yank the wheel open
11-01-2011, 02:00 PM
#10
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search is your friend
there is a pretty long thread on this from 08 as I recall that explains why .1 TC should be off on a dry track ...
11-01-2011, 03:04 PM
#11
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I can't drive this car with TC on. I tried it for a couple hot laps and it's way just too intrusive for RA1 type grip, and gets the brakes too hot, which causes more problems on track, such as inconsistency in the brake zones. That said, it can most certainly give you just enough help to keep it out of a wall, even at higher speeds.
In only my 4th day in driving this car on my home track, which I haven't been "off" in years, I've now managed to spin once, and drive straight off track after gathering up a massive moment, both happening in the high speed corners.....but if you have the luxury of a home track where there is plenty of run-off, which I do, then I don't worry about hitting anything and can push as hard as I can to explore the limits and learn how to drive this beast with TC off.
That said, I'm putting some blame on a totally shot LSD and a big GMG rear bar...
In only my 4th day in driving this car on my home track, which I haven't been "off" in years, I've now managed to spin once, and drive straight off track after gathering up a massive moment, both happening in the high speed corners.....but if you have the luxury of a home track where there is plenty of run-off, which I do, then I don't worry about hitting anything and can push as hard as I can to explore the limits and learn how to drive this beast with TC off.
That said, I'm putting some blame on a totally shot LSD and a big GMG rear bar...
11-01-2011, 03:15 PM
#12
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I can't drive this car with TC on. I tried it for a couple hot laps and it's way just too intrusive for RA1 type grip, and gets the brakes too hot, which causes more problems on track, such as inconsistency in the brake zones. That said, it can most certainly give you just enough help to keep it out of a wall, even at higher speeds.
In only my 4th day in driving this car on my home track, which I haven't been "off" in years, I've now managed to spin once, and drive straight off track after gathering up a massive moment, both happening in the high speed corners.....but if you have the luxury of a home track where there is plenty of run-off, which I do, then I don't worry about hitting anything and can push as hard as I can to explore the limits and learn how to drive this beast with TC off.
That said, I'm putting some blame on a totally shot LSD and a big GMG rear bar...
In only my 4th day in driving this car on my home track, which I haven't been "off" in years, I've now managed to spin once, and drive straight off track after gathering up a massive moment, both happening in the high speed corners.....but if you have the luxury of a home track where there is plenty of run-off, which I do, then I don't worry about hitting anything and can push as hard as I can to explore the limits and learn how to drive this beast with TC off.
That said, I'm putting some blame on a totally shot LSD and a big GMG rear bar...
I had the GT2 bar on the back of my .1 and did not find it a problem, it was a real benefit in dialing out initial understeer on turn-in .... a great mod for the price.
I concur with regard to .1 TC on a dry track, it *has* to be off if for no other reason than EBC will fry your rear brakes...
I recall watching a PSDS GT2 (PCCB) entering the car park at the ring after an instructor hot lap with the rear pads billowing blue smoke due to TC operation on the Nordschliefe.
11-01-2011, 03:19 PM
#13
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11-01-2011, 03:30 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
do you have the GMG front bar also? what settings do you have it on?
I had the GT2 bar on the back of my .1 and did not find it a problem, it was a real benefit in dialing out initial understeer on turn-in .... a great mod for the price.
I concur with regard to .1 TC on a dry track, it *has* to be off if for no other reason than EBC will fry your rear brakes...
I recall watching a PSDS GT2 (PCCB) entering the car park at the ring after an instructor hot lap with the rear pads billowing blue smoke due to TC operation on the Nordschliefe.
I had the GT2 bar on the back of my .1 and did not find it a problem, it was a real benefit in dialing out initial understeer on turn-in .... a great mod for the price.
I concur with regard to .1 TC on a dry track, it *has* to be off if for no other reason than EBC will fry your rear brakes...
I recall watching a PSDS GT2 (PCCB) entering the car park at the ring after an instructor hot lap with the rear pads billowing blue smoke due to TC operation on the Nordschliefe.
11-01-2011, 03:33 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
yeah the front springs probably accentuate the "behavior" by decreasing understeer on the front, and thus "increasing" the oversteer on the rear....