MJones

GT3

July 66
Aug 56
Sept 29
Oct 77
Nov 57
Dec 75
Jan 51
Feb 25
Mar 19
Apr 16
May 7
June 5
July 1
Aug 4
Sept 4
Oct 30
Nov 24
Dec 20
Jan 27
Feb 12
March 14
April 11


TOTAL 630


GT3RS


Mar 26
Apr 46
May 86
June 96
July 47
Aug 17
Sept 12
Oct 38
Nov 29
Dec 29
Jan 26
Feb 13
March 23
April 16

Total 504


Boxter Spider sales 27

gigio_s

Where is it possible to see world figures?

NoSubstitute993

Is there a way to find out with your vin # when your car was built based on the total #?

Larry Cable

the production month is listed on the label in the gas tank lap as I recall, either that or on the drivers door sill

10 GT3

Wow, RS'S are now over 500. Wonder what that is going to mean for long term resale? Are there any numbers for colors? I would imagine the majority of these are gray-black/red or white/red.

Carrera GT

In the grand scheme of things for 911's, 500 is a small number -- once the primary market shakes out, the 3.8 RS will be a "rare" 911. I'd pull a number out of the air and suggest that 20-40% are already out of circulation, never to be seen again -- some will be cosseted away by collectors, some will spin the odometer like a casino poker machine and some will be destroyed (or molested beyond recognition.)

It would be interesting to know the spread of colors, paint to sample and combinations blue-gold, blue-red, etc.

Keep in mind that Porsche thinks that 600 of the 4.0's constitutes a limited production run -- that's perhaps 150 cars coming to the US market. If anything, this suggests to me:
* Car makers tend to be wrong about demand and Porsche has been wrong about the GT3 in every case -- the '07 3.6 RS they underestimated, the '08, they still didn't meet demand, the 3.8 GT3, too high, the 3.8 RS, too high and most recently, the 2RS, they aimed too high.
* Resale hysteria for the 3.6 RS was a product of pent up demand and a sky high market (or perhaps just plain "high" buyer.)
* Porsche still hasn't built a production car (ever) that has traded above sticker and stayed there.
* No production Porsche has ever returned better than "bank savings account" percentages on the purchase price.
* None of these "limited edition" Porsches will be of significance beyond their contrived rarity -- the appreciation of the Mezger era will be in the hearts and minds of the enthusiast, but won't make a jot of difference in resale value other than perhaps in the long term (say 15 to 30 years at the earliest, but again, only reaching tiny percentage returns.)

If you want an "investment grade" Porsche, it exists as a race car with provenance, not as a road car. If you want a 911 that won't tank on resale, it's one of the "enthusiast" 911's (993's, GT3's, RS's.) Everything else will either conform to the norm, or do worse. The odometer is the dominant factor -- in other words, it's a rigged game: if you buy the product and don't use it, the high end of the retail will exploit unused cars, but the high end of the trade-in and wholesale will never reflect these inflated premiums. If you drive the car, operating costs escalate, resale plummets and the market, again, creates the trap for high odometer readings -- regardless of the msrp, the trade-in and wholesale numbers go to the bottom of the bell curve while advertised resale will be less impacted to the downside (as reflected in the bogus market averages posted by the likes of Edmunds or KBB.)

10 GT3

Actually most vintage Porsches are worth multiple times their purchade price. Take a look at 356, 911 2.7 RS or 911 3.0 RS prices.

Carrera GT

Take the intervening decades into account -- even at $350K+, the venerable 2.7 RS has returned 3-5% without factoring devaluation of the dollar (well under half it's effective purchasing power from less than a decade ago) or cost of opportunity or operating costs.

As I noted -- the really valuable examples have race history and provenance. No showroom purchased car has gained above the rate of a meagre checking account.

The point is to recognize that all the fluff and nonsense of these thousands and thousands of "limited edition" 911's cars being built before the 991 will not translate into these cars being investments. Great to drive, great to collect. Expensive in either case.

Subjectively, I think the 3.8 RS is growing in stature and value with every piece of new news from Porsche. I think that stature is shared in part by the 3.6 RS and to some extent by all of the GT3's. Still, it's just a less painful ride on the depreciation curve, not that these cars will ever trade with the irrational exuberance of 2007 other than by virtue of an irrational climate in the economy.

I think modern day 911 enthusiasts lucky enough to have access to a GT3 -- really any of the 997's -- owe a debt of gratitude to the achievements of the engineers and business decision makers leading to this "golden age" of the GT3. But I would not conflate the achievements of the car itself with its prospects of future market value.

The great strength of the mid-engine Porsches of the 90's and the front-engine Porsches of the last two decades have become even greater weakness -- they've gone from cash cow herds, to turning the whole family of cars into herd animals, following the lead of other auto makers to build "competitive" cars (for example, a generic high horsepower mid-engine R8 or 12C or 458.) These beasts of burden should be kept separate from the pedigree breeding stock of the 911 thoroughbreds. But here we are, seeing the heart cut out of the 911 and replaced with an "efficient" product in the form of a mass produced flat six. We should not let these balance sheet assassins commit this knife-in-the-back betrayal. We are mute witnesses! We should revolt against the aristocracy and take off their heads!

The 997 has brought us to the point where we can see ahead and the outlook is a bleak landscape of front-engine and mid-engine mass appeal, mass production, mass market massive cars, of directionless, trendy, conformist cars appealing to dissonance and contradiction -- to drive a car made with oil, powered by oil, rolling on roads built with oil from factories run on oil, but the addition of a battery (only adding to the chemical consequences) will yield a single digit improvement in fuel burning, thereby making a lurid green statement of "progress."

The era of the 911 is not being killed off with the full frontal assault of the 928 -- ultimately destined for failure. This time, the killing is in the form of a dismantling, piece by piece, part by part. There is outcry at each "necessary" step backwards, but each time, the business decisions prevail -- bigger 911's, heavier, "safer" ... then water cooling, then electronic driver "aids" until the 911 reaches the point of Ferrari where the driver does little more than steer and hold the throttle wide open, letting the gearbox make the gear selection, the stability control and electronic differential make the control decisions and the driver does little more than passively choose a direction. The demise of the 911 is happening before our eyes and we should not stand idly by.

P.J.S.

Wow... this is inspired writing. I agree with you assuming the next (991) gt series is heavier and more complicated.

Larry Cable

Not too mention what sort of engine (if any) will power it!!!

If we are done with the Mezger block in the 997 then Porsche needs to develop a new (9A1 based?) powerplant for the 991 GT3, RS and perhaps even the Cup and RSR cars if Motorsport abandons the mezger block also.

Since the current 9A1 38L only develops 408 bhp (in GTS guise) that motor needs to find another 30-50+ bhp in order for the 991 to exceed the bhp of the 997's and keep the tradition of every new generation of GT3 since inception.

Clear such an engine may be possible, if the 9A1 block were combined with the Ti componentry used in the mezger block?

Its unlikely that Porsche will follow the path that BMW M has followed with the new M3 and M5 going to twin-turbo powerplants due to the historic lineage of the Twin Turbos ... but you never know ...

There is also the question of a two-door Panamera model, a likely GT platform, and even the question of the role of an Audi R8 derived model as well, also a likely GT platform?

While I believe that Andreas P "carries the flame" for GT cars and has a design philosophy that is in tune (at least for me so far) with the GT "purity" ... who knows what the future will bring?

P.J.S.

I totally agree with your take on Andreas but I am fearful that he is one man in the machine and regardless of what his ideas are, VW is setting corp. policy and they have a cubby hole in which Porsche WILL fit...

I hope they let Andreas run wild with his ideas and leave the GT cars alone so to speak... add lightness, add power, add grip and bring back the 5 lug wheels... and address the diff issue and coolant plumbing issue... seriously... your no preload diff is POS and we all know it.

Larry Cable

yep my concern also ... I think a lot will become clearer once the 991 is launched and the motorsport 991 plans emerge (if any) I think there is some
question esp with the potential for a 2-door Panamera and Porsche badged R8

I think the coolant hose problem might well be solved with the 9A1 ... the diff is another matter ... be careful what you wish for though ... imagine a 911 with the same electronic nonsense on the McLaren ... uugh ... give me a POS anyday!

P.J.S.

agreed on the diff... just add durability and some preload please...

Larry Cable

I can see the press release now:

"Porsche Releases 2 new 997 GT3 RS models..."

997 GT3 RS "LSD Works Edition" and

997 GT3 RS "Coolest Edition" ...

10 GT3

First, the current 3.8l 9A1 is only 7 hp behind the last Metzger 3.6l GT3, while making significantly more mid-range torque. Ring times are also better on a 9A1 Carrera S PDK than a 996.2 GT3. Porsche has not yet shown what the 9A1 engine car do. Has anyone else noticed that the 3.8l is a shorter stroke/larger bore version of the 3.6l 9A1. Coincidentally, if you put a 3.6l crank in a 3.8l block, you get a 4.0l...foreshadowing. Add some better breathing heads, intake and exhaust and you should easy see numbers from 450 to 500 hp.

Since the 9A1 is a direct injection motor, you can run more compression (which makes more power) and get better fuel economy at the same time. The 9A1 is also lighter than a Metzger engine and hence why the 10' 911 Turbo is about 20 lbs lighter than its predecessor. Part of of the 991's focus is also weight. Porsche already stated that the 991 will use more aluminum than current models, including aluminum fenders. I would not put a wager on the 991 being heavier than the current model.