Originally Posted by Carrera GT

In the grand scheme of things for 911's, 500 is a small number -- once the primary market shakes out, the 3.8 RS will be a "rare" 911. I'd pull a number out of the air and suggest that 20-40% are already out of circulation, never to be seen again -- some will be cosseted away by collectors, some will spin the odometer like a casino poker machine and some will be destroyed (or molested beyond recognition.)

It would be interesting to know the spread of colors, paint to sample and combinations blue-gold, blue-red, etc.

Keep in mind that Porsche thinks that 600 of the 4.0's constitutes a limited production run -- that's perhaps 150 cars coming to the US market. If anything, this suggests to me:
* Car makers tend to be wrong about demand and Porsche has been wrong about the GT3 in every case -- the '07 3.6 RS they underestimated, the '08, they still didn't meet demand, the 3.8 GT3, too high, the 3.8 RS, too high and most recently, the 2RS, they aimed too high.
* Resale hysteria for the 3.6 RS was a product of pent up demand and a sky high market (or perhaps just plain "high" buyer.)
* Porsche still hasn't built a production car (ever) that has traded above sticker and stayed there.
* No production Porsche has ever returned better than "bank savings account" percentages on the purchase price.
* None of these "limited edition" Porsches will be of significance beyond their contrived rarity -- the appreciation of the Mezger era will be in the hearts and minds of the enthusiast, but won't make a jot of difference in resale value other than perhaps in the long term (say 15 to 30 years at the earliest, but again, only reaching tiny percentage returns.)

If you want an "investment grade" Porsche, it exists as a race car with provenance, not as a road car. If you want a 911 that won't tank on resale, it's one of the "enthusiast" 911's (993's, GT3's, RS's.) Everything else will either conform to the norm, or do worse. The odometer is the dominant factor -- in other words, it's a rigged game: if you buy the product and don't use it, the high end of the retail will exploit unused cars, but the high end of the trade-in and wholesale will never reflect these inflated premiums. If you drive the car, operating costs escalate, resale plummets and the market, again, creates the trap for high odometer readings -- regardless of the msrp, the trade-in and wholesale numbers go to the bottom of the bell curve while advertised resale will be less impacted to the downside (as reflected in the bogus market averages posted by the likes of Edmunds or KBB.)

Originally Posted by Carrera GT

Take the intervening decades into account -- even at $350K+, the venerable 2.7 RS has returned 3-5% without factoring devaluation of the dollar (well under half it's effective purchasing power from less than a decade ago) or cost of opportunity or operating costs.

As I noted -- the really valuable examples have race history and provenance. No showroom purchased car has gained above the rate of a meagre checking account.

The point is to recognize that all the fluff and nonsense of these thousands and thousands of "limited edition" 911's cars being built before the 991 will not translate into these cars being investments. Great to drive, great to collect. Expensive in either case.

Subjectively, I think the 3.8 RS is growing in stature and value with every piece of new news from Porsche. I think that stature is shared in part by the 3.6 RS and to some extent by all of the GT3's. Still, it's just a less painful ride on the depreciation curve, not that these cars will ever trade with the irrational exuberance of 2007 other than by virtue of an irrational climate in the economy.

I think modern day 911 enthusiasts lucky enough to have access to a GT3 -- really any of the 997's -- owe a debt of gratitude to the achievements of the engineers and business decision makers leading to this "golden age" of the GT3. But I would not conflate the achievements of the car itself with its prospects of future market value.

The great strength of the mid-engine Porsches of the 90's and the front-engine Porsches of the last two decades have become even greater weakness -- they've gone from cash cow herds, to turning the whole family of cars into herd animals, following the lead of other auto makers to build "competitive" cars (for example, a generic high horsepower mid-engine R8 or 12C or 458.) These beasts of burden should be kept separate from the pedigree breeding stock of the 911 thoroughbreds. But here we are, seeing the heart cut out of the 911 and replaced with an "efficient" product in the form of a mass produced flat six. We should not let these balance sheet assassins commit this knife-in-the-back betrayal. We are mute witnesses! We should revolt against the aristocracy and take off their heads!

The 997 has brought us to the point where we can see ahead and the outlook is a bleak landscape of front-engine and mid-engine mass appeal, mass production, mass market massive cars, of directionless, trendy, conformist cars appealing to dissonance and contradiction -- to drive a car made with oil, powered by oil, rolling on roads built with oil from factories run on oil, but the addition of a battery (only adding to the chemical consequences) will yield a single digit improvement in fuel burning, thereby making a lurid green statement of "progress."

The era of the 911 is not being killed off with the full frontal assault of the 928 -- ultimately destined for failure. This time, the killing is in the form of a dismantling, piece by piece, part by part. There is outcry at each "necessary" step backwards, but each time, the business decisions prevail -- bigger 911's, heavier, "safer" ... then water cooling, then electronic driver "aids" until the 911 reaches the point of Ferrari where the driver does little more than steer and hold the throttle wide open, letting the gearbox make the gear selection, the stability control and electronic differential make the control decisions and the driver does little more than passively choose a direction. The demise of the 911 is happening before our eyes and we should not stand idly by.

Originally Posted by 10 GT3

First, the current 3.8l 9A1 is only 7 hp behind the last Metzger 3.6l GT3, while making significantly more mid-range torque. Ring times are also better on a 9A1 Carrera S PDK than a 996.2 GT3. Porsche has not yet shown what the 9A1 engine car do. Has anyone else noticed that the 3.8l is a shorter stroke/larger bore version of the 3.6l 9A1. Coincidentally, if you put a 3.6l crank in a 3.8l block, you get a 4.0l...foreshadowing. Add some better breathing heads, intake and exhaust and you should easy see numbers from 450 to 500 hp.

Since the 9A1 is a direct injection motor, you can run more compression (which makes more power) and get better fuel economy at the same time. The 9A1 is also lighter than a Metzger engine and hence why the 10' 911 Turbo is about 20 lbs lighter than its predecessor. Part of of the 991's focus is also weight. Porsche already stated that the 991 will use more aluminum than current models, including aluminum fenders. I would not put a wager on the 991 being heavier than the current model.

Originally Posted by Larry Cable

... and 27 to 42 bhp behind the 3.8L mezgers which was my point. I am not saying that the 9A1 is worse, nor incapable of making up the gap, I was merely, and reasonably (IMHO) stating that Porsche needs to undertake some significant development on that engine if it is to make it into the 991 GT cars.

If they can take that much weight of of the engine, and generate equivalent bhp then the 991 GT3 cars will be pretty special ... I think we have to see what
the Motorsport division comes up with for the 991 Cup and RSR ...

Originally Posted by Larry Cable

... and 27 to 42 bhp behind the 3.8L mezgers which was my point. I am not saying that the 9A1 is worse, nor incapable of making up the gap, I was merely, and reasonably (IMHO) stating that Porsche needs to undertake some significant development on that engine if it is to make it into the 991 GT cars.

If they can take that much weight of of the engine, and generate equivalent bhp then the 991 GT3 cars will be pretty special ... I think we have to see what
the Motorsport division comes up with for the 991 Cup and RSR ...

Originally Posted by 10 GT3

Keep in mind you are comparing the main line car to the more elite sports car. It is currently an apples to oranges comparison. The last regular production version of an engine that looks anything like a Metzger, would be a 993. Even the Euro spec 993 RS 3.8l engine is pathetic compared to even a 9A1 3.6l Carrera engine. This still isn't a fair comparison because the 993 RS engine has those poor breathing 2 valve heads. Remember that Porsche had to go water cooled to run a 4 valve head and hence the Metzger was born.

A 9A1 engine is $13-17K versus twice that for the Metzger GT3 engine. For that level of cost gap there is a lot Porsche can do: CNC ports the head (like a GT3), improve the intake manifold (997.1 GT3 from 996 GT3), add variocam to the exhaust (997.2 GT3 from 997.1 GT3) and add displacement; which this engine is already designed to do. I would not be concerned with Porsche being able to put out big numbers from this engine family. The real question will be reliability on the race track. That is what we all need to see before we are ready to jump on the 9A1 band wagon.

Originally Posted by gigio_s

Where is it possible to see world figures?

Originally Posted by NoSubstitute993

Is there a way to find out with your vin # when your car was built based on the total #?